Flat Thief Abilities

General ACKS Forums General Discussion
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I think “fiddly” was a fair thing to say about how you first presented the equipment… having boots give you a bonus but get ruined if worn in terrain A, B, or C… so you must bring a different pair of footwear on adventures… or oil that helps reduce the encumbrance for the purposes of proficiency throws for skill X (but not throws for skill Y also tied to encumbrance).

I like this equipment list better. For the record, I have no problems with using equipment to let thieves do their job… what would a fighter be without armor and weapons after all? (probably dead.)

I almost… almost… want to say just add one piece of equipment:
Thieves’ Kit: A thief’s kit includes everything a thief needs to do his job. It consists of a set of lock picks and files, a pair of padded boots, a couple patterned cloaks for camouflage, an ear funnel, discrete climbing gear, blackener paste, and special straps and harnesses for securing equipment. A thieves’ kit can only be employed when wearing leather armor or less. When in possession of a thieves’ kit, a character gains a +2 bonus to proficiency throws to perform thief skills.

… but that’s probably not a very satisfying solution :slight_smile:

Here’s my critique of the equipment list and using equipment as a “fix”:

  1. I’m glad to see knotted rope go. When you use a rope to climb, it just works.

  2. Weapon/Armament Blackener is pretty cool. I don’t think you need any concrete game mechanic tied to it. It’s kind of on the level of a blanket. I’d keep it. Imaginative players will find good uses for it and what self-respecting assassin doesn’t want their weapons blackened?

  3. Ear Trumpet. I like this item. It doesn’t meaningfully help the thief though. The thief already has a decent chance at succeeding at this and everyone can attempt to Hear Noise with some classes being equal to a 1st level thief in ability. In practice, this is one of those skills that often succeeds through redundancy as several people make an attempt at the same task.

  4. Padded Shoes. I like this item. With respect to verisimilitude, I’m wondering if padded shoes are better than bare feet (i.e. young Conan) or moccasins? Aside from that, the fire damage thing seems contrived, I don’t think that’s necessary. Instead of being destroyed if immersed in water, I’d say they don’t work when wet.

  5. Thieves’ Garb. Very Nice!

  6. Superior Thieves Tools. Their cost won’t help 1st level thieves who need it most.

  7. Masterwork Thieves Tools: Their cost won’t help thieves until about 3rd level.

I know I’m probably coming across as overly critical, but honestly I do like the potential of this route. I definitely want to dwell on it a bit more.

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Alex said: With all due respect, I think you might be being a bit grognardy about the idea of thieves having equipment!

Dude, coming from you I’m going to take that as a compliment. Now get off my lawn!

Hey, I noticed you saw the light on the equipment thing! And, for the record, I’m not totally against equipment; I like the masterwork thieves tools, for example. Although, as Beragon mentioned, doesn’t really help a 1st level Thief. I’m still a bit torn about Thieves’ Garb - there is some weirdness there if a Thief is really hiding in shadows. I’ll try it out and see if it rubs me or my players the wrong way. Oh, and another thing to keep in mind is that if you build in too much equipment it starts to become a defacto requirement for the Thief to do their job (a la 3.x “Christmas Tree” effect). And speaking of Fighters tracking swords, we don’t track whether their sword is serrated, if they have a sheath or belt loop, and if they have a whetstone with them.

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“we don’t track whether their sword is serrated, if they have a sheath or belt loop, and if they have a whetstone with them.”

But the ACKS Equipment Companion covers these in full detail!!!

Serrated swords gain +1 to attack throws against creatures with soft armor.
Belt-looped swords suffer -4 to saving throws against attacks from oozes.
Swords need to be sharpened daily on a whetstone or deal one less point of damage.

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Touché! I’m admittedly not using much of the PC. Like I said, I plan to try it out, and I’m perfectly willing to be wrong.

65

Oh, I see. I’ve been had.
:stuck_out_tongue:
[pppbbtttt!]

66

More musings:

Increasing the chances of success for the following thief skills: OPEN LOCKS, FIND TRAPS, REMOVE TRAPS

THIEVES’ TOOLS COMPANION KIT
A companion set of tools to use in conjunction with the standard set of thieves’ tools, this set includes drills, pliers, scissors, rods, blocks, pads, and a magnifying glass. A thief using this kit in addition to a set of thieves’ tools gains a +2 bonus to proficiency throws to Open Locks and Remove Traps.
Cost: 35 gp

OPEN LOCKS
The thief may make additional attempts on a particular lock as long as the previous attempt failed by 4 or less. Otherwise, additional attempts on the same lock are fruitless until reaching a new level of experience. The Judge may apply a bonus or penalty to attempts, depending on the complexity of the lock.

FIND TRAPS
If the thief fails the proficiency throw by 4 or less, he knows a trap exists, but does not know its exact nature. A thief may spend more time searching for traps to increase his chances of success. If he spends double the amount of time required (2 turns), he gains a +2 bonus to the attempt.

REMOVE TRAPS
The thief may make additional attempts to remove a trap as long as the previous attempt failed by 4 or less. Otherwise, additional attempts are fruitless until reaching a new level of experience. The Judge may apply bonuses or penalties to the roll, depending on the complexity of the trap.

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A couple comments on the above:

  • The cost of thieves’ tools + thieves’ tools companion kit is 60gp… just like plate armor for a fighter.
  • whether or not the thief can attempt to disarm a trap he knows exists but does not know the exact nature of… that has been intentionally unanswered.
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Brilliant. I am going to incorporate your “thieves’ tools companion kit” and “find traps” rule into Heroic Fantasy ACKS.

I might also make the bonus +4 at 5 stone or less encumbrance (e.g. 120’ move) and +2 at 7 stone or less (90’ move), but disregard the notion of adding or subtracting encumbrance from armor based on oiling and blackening and so on.

So this will result in:

Open Locks: +2 bonus (from companion kit), re-try on fail, break tools on 1
Find Traps: +2 bonus (from companion kit), vague idea of trap at 4 or less
Remove Traps: +2 bonus (from companion kit), re-try on fail, break tools on 1
Hear Noise: +2 bonus (from ear-trumpet)
Climb/Hide/Sneak: +2 to +4 bonus (from encumbrance), +2 bonus (from gear)

We’ll see how that plays out.

69

I like it. Much more concise. Here’s another piece of equipment for thieves (hope you didn’t dump INT):

FINDING AND REMOVING TRAPS FOR DUMMIES (POCKET VERSION) by Robin Lairs.
A thief who references this manual while searching for or disarming a trap gains a +2 bonus to the attempt, but the attempt takes twice as long.

:stuck_out_tongue:

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My final musings on this. Some pretty cool stuff thanks to this thread, and it’s convinced me (on paper at least) that making these adjustments for thief PCs will enhance gaming at my group’s table. I plan on giving the following a go in my next session and see how we like them (currently a 3rd level thief in the party). I must admit that I’m torn over whether the equipment + a few key rules additions approach, or the thief skill chart re-write approach is better. I think they’re both equally good, but I want to try this one out simply because it just feels cool. If I find the thief player struggling with applying these adjustments to thief skill attempts, then I’ll consider the chart approach.

Anyway, it should hold us over until Heroic Fantasy ACKS is published!

NEW EQUIPMENT
Thieves’ Tools Companion Kit: A companion set of tools to use in conjunction with the standard set of thieves’ tools, this set includes drills, pliers, scissors, rods, blocks, pads, tweezers, shims, and a magnifying glass. A thief using this kit in addition to a set of thieves’ tools gains a +2 bonus to proficiency throws to Open Locks, Find Traps, and Remove Traps. Cost: 35 gp.

Adventurer’s Harness: Also known as a burglar’s harness, this is a set of belts, straps, sheaths, and cases designed to securely fasten items to one’s body without hampering movement. A character wearing an adventurer’s harness can ignore 1 stone’s worth of equipment when calculating encumbrance. It cannot secure heavy items, or coins and similar items. It cannot be worn over armor heavier than chain mail. Cost: 10 gp.

THIEF SKILLS (ADDITIONAL NOTES)
Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, and Climb Walls: Characters with these skills can increase their chances of success by being light on their feet. If the character’s encumbrance is 4 stone or less, he gains a +2 bonus to proficiency throws for these skills. If the character’s encumbrance is 2 stone or less, the bonus is +4.

Open Locks: A thief can attempt to pick a particular lock multiple times. As long as the previous failed result was more than half the result needed to succeed, he may make another attempt.

Example: a 1st level thief needs an 18+ to pick a lock. His proficiency throw results in a 10. He fails, but may try again. His second attempt is a 17. He fails, but may try again. His third attempt is a 9. He fails, and any further attempts to try that lock automatically fail until gaining a level.

Find Traps: If the thief fails a proficiency throw to Find Traps by 4 or less, he knows a trap exists (if there actually is one), but does not know its exact nature.

Remove Traps: A thief can attempt to disarm a trap multiple times. As long as the previous failed result was more than half the result needed to succeed, he may make another attempt.

Pick Pockets: A thief can try to suddenly grab an item without regard to being noticed – doing so grants a +4 bonus to the proficiency throw, but the intended victim automatically notices regardless of whether it succeeds or not. The item may not be a weapon in hand (that’s a disarm attempt).

71

Wouldn’t the high level Dwarves Fury have a higher AC?
Fleshrunes, +3 shield, ring, cloak, braces AC 7, and Dex 18 for a sick:
6+4+3+3+3+7+3=29

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Nicely done!

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It’s my understanding that flesh runes do not stack with armor or things that count as armor, and that Bracers of Armor count as armor (“grant the user an AC as though he were wearing armor”, “no other armor may be worn with the bracers” emphasis on “other”).

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I think I am just going to sit quietly and work on Dwimmermount because clearly I’m so knee deep in dungeon design I don’t remember my own rules as clearly as you guys do.

If anybody needs me, I’m over on the Kickstarter page.

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[/necro]

One simple fix might be to let a 1st level thief trade off one or more of his/her thief skills (similar to the trade-offs in the custom class rules) in exchange for a bonus proficiency (selected from a small list which improves one of their skills, such as alertness, cat burglary, lockpicking, skulking, and trap finding; possibly other custom ones with similar effects of ~+4 skill bonus). Changing the class with a more elaborate system of trade offs could put off certain thief skills until later in exchange for improved early skills.

I don’t think this necessarily balances the class, but it gives low level thieves a few areas where they excel so they might be useful long enough to survive to gain a few levels.

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I was actually contemplating necroing this thread as well. I decided to expiriment a bit with what would have otherwise been a standard bandit encounter and made them thieves instead. For several rounds, half of them tried to hide in shadows with the intent of sneaking up and attacking the squishy mages and archers.

Suffice it to say, every single roll was a failure, even for the level 4 thief boss. We do play-by-post, so the thieves are currently in the process of getting eviscerated by fighters and dwarven vaultguards.

I understand thieves are not meant to be competitive with fighters in combat, but they’re not really even competitive with clerics, who’s heavy armor is disproportionately more relevant at level 1 than being able to hide in shadows. I’m not even convinced the XP differential is sufficient. 1250 still seems expensive for a strict interpretation of the rules. It’s possible that clever roleplay and the DM saying “oh, a thief could do that no problem” could close the gap, but as-is, hide in shadows and its ilk just don’t stack up.

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There is, perhaps, a third option of changing the type of roll for the thief skills, and go from 1d20 to something with a curve, like a 2d6/3d6.

A little massaging of the target numbers from the first table in the thread plus a bit of improvement over the remaining 14 levels could see a novice thief succeeding somewhat often, and a master thief flubbing at almost the same percentages they do at the current numbers.

3d6 with Alex’s very first table gets the level 1 thief between 25%-50% successful. Moving those numbers down over time to the 5-7 range gets the master thief at 90%-98% successful, which is in-line with the table from ACKS pg 23.

I dunno if breaking from ACKS’ consistency in using d20 is more outside the bounds than what else has been proposed. 3d6 at least gets you near a 1-20 range; 2d10 would also work at very similar chances.

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I wasn’t there, obviously, so I don’t know what you did, but it sounds like you’re mishandling (if you’ll forgive the term) the probabilities.

The bandits, assuming that the PCs aren’t looking for them, might only trigger Hear Noise rolls by the PCs, followed by a Surprise roll only for a PC that “hears something” (successful Hear Noise, but don’t tell them anything, yet), followed by a Move Silently roll by anyone that might have been heard by those PCs that aren’t surprised. Keep in mind that a group of Thieves, if forced to all succeed or everyone fails are at a ridiculous disadvantage, and this probably doesn’t make any sense to adjudicate this situation that way (for example, a group of six 10th level Thieves are going to fail ~40% of the time by this metric). To me it makes waaaay more sense that either A.) only a Thief closing on a target who made their Hear Noise and passed a Surprise roll (i.e. a total 10% chance) should even be forced to roll Move Silently (i.e. one Thief), or B.) a group of Thieves moving together (i.e. following in each other’s footsteps) should make one roll at the worst probability. Either way, Surprise is quite likely, but more importantly, the odds for or against don’t become preposterous as soon as more than a couple individuals are involved.

The above all assumes that the Bandits are moving. If they know that the PCs are coming and wait, unmoving, in ambush, I would not allow the PCs the chance of Hear Noise. Unless the PCs are quite vigilant or the terrain is extremely open and difficult to hide in, I would automatically impose surprise. If they are vigilant, I’d allow a Surprise roll by everyone, but still impose a penalty due to walking into a prepared ambush.

79

If I’ve interpreted the rules correctly (and it’s entirely possible I haven’t), you roll hide in shadows, which is 19+ for level 1 thieves, in order to hide assuming conditions exist. These thieves were attempting to close distance with the party in order to backstab. When hide in shadows fails, you still have a 2 in 6 chance the party is surprised… unless this is outdoors and the party has an elf.

Only once you’re hidden does move silently come into play. successfully moving silently negates a chance to hear noise, and even if you fail to move silently and they hear noise, there’s still a chance at surprise.

That being said, room for adjudication for the situation is fine and probably necessary, but some guidelines would be helpful. Attempting to run thieves as written results in a lot of sadness for the thieves. I even had one player who, being especially risk averse, was not well suited to being an assassin and converted her character to a bladedancer.

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Nope, it’s Move Silently. But that’s not even really the problem. The issue is that the way you are adjudicating it, it is basically impossible for anyone to ambush the party. Ever. Does that make sense in your world? I know in my campaigns it doesn’t.

Assuming Hide in Shadows is required, only Thieves can ever avoid visual detection. The trouble here is that Hide in Shadows is not a PC’s ability to “hide”, it is specifically a Thief’s ability to disappear (i.e. cannot be seen) in shadowy conditions, even if that would otherwise be impossible for non-Thieves (or Assassins and what-have-you) to hide in, and a Thief must be motionless in order to do so.

For everybody else there are a four main possibilities, and remaining unseen is a function of either someone not actively looking for you, or someone not hearing you, and hence, not looking in your direction, or not being somewhere that you can be seen, or being invisible.

If the PCs are paying attention (e.g. watching for enemies sneaking up on them; monsters can only maintain this kind of alertness for 1 turn), and could theoretically see the Bandits, the Bandits will have to be invisible, or Hide in Shadows somewhere the PCs will move to or by, or be very well hidden. If that occurs, the PCs will be surprised. If the PCs aren’t paying that kind of careful attention to ambush (which I would say is most of the time) but aren’t distracted, they get to roll Surprise. This is normally 3+ on D6 to avoid being surprised, however, the Bandits being hidden and waiting in ambush can apply a penalty to this roll. I would actually say that unless the PCs are very carefully looking, as per the first option, well hidden Bandits who aren’t moving will be virtually certain to surprise the party. If the PCs are distracted (e.g. conversing, arguing, dealing with difficult terrain, guiding problematic animals, or any number of other things the Judge thinks are distracting), they get their Hear Noise chance (don’t have it in front of me, but I believe it’s 18+ from Adventuring Proficiency). If they fail, they get ambushed/Surprised. If they make it, those that do have to roll for Surprise as above (3+ on D6, or worse if the Bandits are hidden, etc.). Those that also manage to avoid Surprise must now contend with the fact that your Bandit Thieves can Move Silently (unlike normal Bandits, and assuming they’re even moving). Any Thief passing their Move Silently can not be heard by those who made their Hear Noise roll, full stop. PCs (and only those who Heard Noise and aren’t Surprised) would then be aware of any Thief that failed Move Silently, but only that Thief, at which point the PCs are surprised by the rest of the Thieves.

The problem with the way you’re adjudicating the situation, as I started this post saying, is that it leads to a result where it is virtually impossible for anyone to Surprise the party. To me, that’s patently ridiculous, so adjudicating the situation in this way makes no sense to me. Anytime you start stacking multiple rolls and requiring all of them to pass or fail to obtain a result, you will quickly land in the realm of absurdity, and Thief skills are no different.