Gearing up to try ACKS again, have misc. questions

I would say it depends how you define ‘meant to be’.

The game will certainly support creation of beastman armies using the domain rules from ACKS and D@W, and doing so will let you build a more accurate and detailed world.

On the other hand, it’s a pretty good bit of work to create all of that from scratch if you didn’t already have the supporting information, just for the purpose of creating a single marauding army that needs to be defeated, and the game can support reverse engineering it just as easily; you can start out by saying, say, there are 3,000 beastmen in the army, and then arbitrarily pick composition. If it comes up later that you need to know what kind of domain supported the army, you can figure it out by using the army stats you made up.

I think which one works better for you depends entirely on you and your campaign, but for most people, I expect it would be easier to go with the second method. The second method also supports a ‘don’t figure things out until I need to know them’ style which I find is more popular. (It’s not my style, but I’m weird.)

I’m just curious about whether the default assumption is that beastmen are organized into the whole king-prince-etc-baron pyramid (IE: Functioning exactly like civilizations, except with slavery and human sacrifice and higher population growth rates) or if their default organization is the random “villages” that’re created by lair tables. (and if the latter, how exactly those villages mobilize into armies)

Composition is also an issue. What guidelines are there for whether a domain’s 600 beastman families are ogres, orcs, kobolds, or hobgobs?

Our group only meets biweekly, and I’m taking the next session off because we just went on a road trip together and I nobody wants to see each others faces in the near future, so I’ve got plenty of time to do the math to an exacting standard.

Oops, didn’t see your suggestion to do composition arbitrarily.

Also, hang on- it costs 210 gp to indoctrinate a slave (180 for five year’s upkeep, plus 1/60th of a marshal’s upkeep for five years.) Basic training then takes up another half-gold (one 60th of 30 gp.)

That means if I open Infantry By Brindles, I can expect to turn a profit of just under one gold per slave per year? This seems economically a very poor choice, particularly since beastman races are sold for a fraction of that. Are goblin slavedrivers operating at a loss, or do they ignore a significant portion of the normal costs?

I think it’s possible for both to be true.

Most beastmen would be in villages, because they don’t have a leader capable of uniting them into a semi-civilization (I say semi because they also have weak farming abilities meaning lower income, combined with the maximum population limits per hex, would mean that a beastman King would need to control much more land area than a human King to reach the same level).

But the big world-destroying armies come out of those rare semi-civilization areas.

Composition is still a bit of an issue, I agree. Have you considered using the standard mercenary rates and converting them to analagous beastmen?

For example, goblins might replace light infantry, goblin wolf riders replacing cavalry, hobgoblins replacing heavy infantry, ogres replacing cataphract cavalry, etc. I don’t think you would get a perfect 1:1 correspondence, but you could use them as a starting point.

Alternately, you could just say it’s a demographic thing and start with the demographics of the area. If the domain is 80% goblin and 20% hobgoblin, you could say that there might be an ogre here and there, but not enough to make any meaningful units. (Although they might have an ogre lieutenant for some units.) Then you could use the D@W breakdowns for the goblins and hobs separately, simply based off the number of each that happened to be within the domain.

I think in general, ACKS assumes that a single type of beastman is dominant over the others in any given area, the same way that a realm is a human or elven domain instead of being a mixed domain. Which makes sense; most types of beastmen are happy to war against or enslave other types of beastmen, they’ll only stop fighting each other to fight humans when the humans are currently in the process of invading them.

Double posting!

I don’t believe beastmen train their slaves.

Whether they’re selling a captured human or a fellow goblin, they just make raids, capture victims, and sell them or put them directly to work. (This would make them rate as conscripts if they were put into battle, or unskilled laborers if not.)

The prices listed are for infantry, though- You can’t even GET militia-grade slaves for them.

I suppose we could interpret this to mean that all beast-men are born ready to serve as light infantry and don’t require significant loyalty training (probably because they’re not very loyal regardless.)

The bigger issue in my mind is that while human peasant families can be treated as homogenous, beastmen would vary wildly in their productivity. An all ogre domain, for example, would likely include far, far fewer families, but each would be much more productive.

I’d also assume that beastmen rarely form racially based domains, as every fantasy I can think of tends to mix them. “By the seven forests, no!” cried the elf, “The orcs are bringing up their war trolls! They’ve got kobold slingers on their shoulders, too!”

I’m also really curious where wages given to your soldier beastmen goes. I at first found the idea of paying orcs a high wage ridiculous, but then I figured it could be hand-waved as food, but then I noticed the book says they have “little need for food and drink.” What do you buy when you’re a bloodthirsty warrior with no need for creature comforts?

Ah, you meant slaves of beastmen themselves. Yeah, being monsters, they never qualify as militia-grade; any adult beastman rates as at least light infantry by virtue of being a monster. (Even 1-1 HD is better in terms of HP and attack throw than a normal 0-level human.)

As far as families and productivity, ACKS Core does have an answer for that. “Beastmen families will be of the weaker varieties, e.g. kobolds, goblins, or orcs, consisting of noncombatant women, elderly, and young.” This is specifically in reference to chaotic domains ruled by PCs, but in general, I think the idea is that most of the families are noncombatants in some way. One member per family is an adult male, which will provide more than sufficient for your conscription of any kind, which tells us that you can always conscript warriors up to your conscription limit, and the other four members of the family are noncombatants of some kind. (Perhaps they’re old, or injured, or sickly, or whatever.) Perhaps one beastman ‘family’ in an ogre tribe is one or two ogres and their goblin/kobold household slaves.

I have no answer for wages. Maybe they just bury it in the ground and kill anyone who dares ask why they aren’t spending it.

I agree that they rarely form mixed domains, but you did ask about composition :stuck_out_tongue: I must have misunderstood you, if you just meant the ratio between things like goblin infantry, goblin slingers, and goblin wolf riders. That ratio should be in D@W with the number available per area.

This has been a fairly complex thread with a lot of back-and-forth discussion and great thoughts! I will try to chime in a bit.

Susan, some of your questions touch on issues of beastman culture. These are difficult to adjudicate in a generic way because different campaign worlds - even within the old school D&D flavors - have such wildly different assumptions about them. And even Tolkien wrestled with “what did orcs eat and where were Mordor’s farms”.

Below is some text from the unpublished Auran Empire Campaign Setting that explains how I think of beastmen. The key takeaway is that most beastmen, most of the time, are functioning at the level of clan and village. Only when powerful chaotic leaders of 9th level or higher emerge will they organize into domains and realms. It is up to the Judge creating the setting to decide how often this occurs. (Tolkien, for instance, seems to assume that in the absence of a Sauron-like figure, orcs fall into factions no longer than a few hundred to a few thousand.) Some Judges will have beastmen great chiefs or khans leading beastmen nations. Others will have dragons or liches or powerful evil warlords uniting them.


Beastmen were created a few centuries before the Empyrean War through magical research that combined humans and humanoids with beast stock in repeated cross-strains. They were created to be soldiers for the Zaharan army – ruthless and blood-thirsty, but susceptible to control. Beastmen include bugbears (hobgoblins and bears), gnolls (men and hyenas), kobolds (lizardmen and dogs), goblins (gnolls and dwarves), hobgoblins (men and goblins), lizardmen (men and iguanas), minotaurs (ogres and bulls), ogres (men and gorillas), orcs (men and pigs), owlbears (bugbears and owls), troglodytes (lizardmen and chameleons) and trolls (ogres and hydras).
All beastmen are organized into clans of related families ruled by a chief. Within the clan, the males do all the fighting, herding, and hunting, while the women do the cooking, skinning animals, setting up camp, feeding children, and transporting household goods. Endemic warfare between the clans is constant, except when great chiefs rise up to lead a horde to battle.
Beastmen warriors tattoo themselves, and wear their horn shorn to a single lock, in a great mane, or in a mohawk. They fight with slings, javelins, spears, bows, swords, morning stars, flails, and axes, and generally wear light armor, such as leather or chain. Raids may be accompanied by blowing horns and warpipes. Beastmen are head hunters, believing that taking the head captures the soul of the victim. For the same reason, the flesh of their enemies is often consumed in ritual feasts. They bury their own dead, often with slaves, arms, armor, and treasure for great chiefs. They worship the chthonic gods, with religious traditions passed on orally by shamans and witch-doctors.
Beastmen have limited agricultural skills, surviving by herding goats, sheep, aurochs, and wild pigs that graze on the scant vegetation found in the rugged lands of the Waste. They get the rest of their food from gathering nuts and vegetables, hunting wildlife, and raiding each other and civilized settlements. Beastmen use the woven hair of sheep and goats, or the leather, bone, sinew and hide of animals, for saddlebags, blankets, clothing, furniture, tools, and shelter, and the dung for fuel and mixer. Weaponsmiths and armorers are rare, and knowledge is handed down orally within clans. Metal-working skills are limited to working wrought iron in pit-furnaces.
To acquire better weapons, armor, and treasure, beastmen raid the settlements of the Borderlands and trade with Kemesh. Beastmen mercenaries frequently serve in Kemeshi armies, bringing home weapons of steel, slaves, and treasure. Through raiding and trading, this loot spreads throughout the beastmen clans.
There are no shops or standards of exchange within beastman clans, but beastmen nevertheless prize wealth as a means to display their power, status, and valor in battle. A beastman with holdings of animals, food, mates, treasure, equipment, slaves, troops, gold, and weapons is inevitably a mighty and respected warrior within his clan – for if he were he not tough enough to guard what he owns, he would soon lose it. The moment a beastman shows weakness, he soon finds himself stripped of all his possessions.
The most powerful beastmen settlements are tribes of several clans, occupying ruins, caves, or villages. Beastmen in villages generally live in roundhouses constructed of whatever materials are at hand. In wet, wooded climates, roundhouses with wattle-and-daub walls and thatched roofs will dominate. In other terrain, the walls are constructed of stone, mortared with sand, soil, and dung while the roof covering is of woven auroch-hair or animal-hide, sewn to short spars. Stone-lined pits are dug for iron forges, kilns, food storage, and waste. All the buildings are gathered to form a ring fort or hill-fort, surrounded by ditches, moats, earthen ramparts or piled stone walls.
Isolated, less powerful, clans have no permanent home, living a nomadic existence of herding, hunting, and gathering, following seasonably available wild plants and game. Nomadic beastmen dwell in tents made from animal hides sewn together or woven auroch-hair wrapped around wooden poles. These tents are usually small, but can be as large as thirty feet in diameter.

So, conscription provides you with a force of 1/10th the number of families in your domain, meaning a domain with a population of 600 families can maintain a standing army of 60? And if these 60 should die, the only way to replace them would be to wait for the population to double, so that there’ll be a new 600 families from which conscripts can be pulled?

Doesn’t this tend to create “depleted” domains, where the population is at maximum so there’s no new families and no new conscripts?

The answer is yes, and that is by design. D@W puts very, very strict limits on how large an army you can field in a short time.

A realm which has lost its conscripts will need to either take the economically-damaging decision to use a militia or to use mercenaries. A realm which has exhausted its conscripts, milita, and mercenaries is going to be conquered.

Consider…

  • After Alexander the Great’s battles against Persia, he began to recruit Persian troops into his army. If he could continue to conscript men from Macedon this wouldn’t be necessary.
  • When Rome’s population was at its height, after generations of warfare, the Emperors had to recruit Germanic mercenaries into the Legions.
  • When the Anglo-Saxon fyrd was defeated at Hastings…that was it.

so, ignoring troops supplied from vassals, if someone manages to get a full civilized domain (16 6-mile hexes with 780 families each) they have 12480 families, of which they can get 1248 troops from ever, and any more troops would have to come from a city built within the domain, yes?

I suppose this makes sense in the time scale of a single adventurer, where even if a wizard lives to be 80 there’s only so many generations of new 18-24 y/o recruits that can show up in that time. Even still, I have to imagine there has to be SOME rate of gradual replenishment, even if it’s so small as to warrant considering it 0 for the time scale of an adventurer’s lifetime (or maybe I’m just playing too much Crusader Kings II)

Personally, I had assumed that conscripts would work like militia if killed; that is, the domain’s number of families would be reduced by 1.

As I examine the rules, this is clearly not the RAW, but I think I prefer it to the idea that the remaining members of the family will somehow survive, continue to produce revenue, and never produce another able-bodied adult ever.

A possible middle ground is to say that every 5 years, 25% of your potential conscript pool refreshes. (Thus, every 20 years, you’ve got a full crop of young men.)

For the example of Marcus’ domain in D@W, he’s down 50 conscripts from his potential maxmium (10% of families), so if he goes 20 years without losing another conscript in battle, he would be able to conscript an additional 12.5 conscripts every 5 years. In terms of play for 99% of campaigns, this is completely worth ignoring, but it makes me feel better.

The time between the end of WWI and the start of WWII was about 20 years. There’s a thought (that I can’t find a link to right now) about the ways you can treat those as one war with a slight pause to grow another crop of young men to send into the guns.

I like this description of beastmen!

Ooh, this is good. I’d actually been contemplating a much less streamlined system of allowing growth rolls that would take the domain over maximum to replenish depleted families.

I like this, although I’d personally do 5% per year (rounded down, so in Marcus’ case, 2 after one year, 3 more after the second year, etc). This would reflect the new conscripts entering the lower age bracket, while the oldest veterans age out of conscription. Assuming losses are fairly evenly distributed among age groups, this would represent the gradual replacement of losses through incoming conscripts outnumbering “retirees”. In the case of an age-cohort army (like the Roman Republic’s split between hastati, principes, and triarii), it becomes less valid, but that may be more like a militia anyway.

If you really want to go granular with it, you could even go all the way down to .41667% per month, or 1.25% per season :wink:

If it takes 15 years for a human to grow to be old enough to fight as a solder, the replacement rate would be a hair under 7% per year or 0.6% per month. If you want to leave the soldering to people of age 18+ then the figures would be 6% and 0.5% respectively. That would allow for regeneration, but still act as a hard limit to raising an army quickly.

The key would be plugging that into the existing rules for realm growth. Adding new families doesn’t distinguish between what’s from immigration and what’s from children growing into adults and forming their own family.

For example, imagine a family: 2 adults and 3 children. 1 adult goes off to war and dies. Per the rules, this family of 1 adult and 3 children still produces income but can’t be conscripted again, that requires a new family. But when you roll that exploding d10 and new families show up, are they all immigrants, or is it that the eldest child of the original family has come of age and is making their own family without diminishing the income potential of the original family? It may seem odd that a family of 1 adult and 2 children has the same earning potential, but we’re dealing in averages, so the assumption is that there are other families out there producing more.