I have some doubts regarding the rules for surprise and for sneaking; specifically, on how the situation where one can choose to try to sneak past a group arises in the first place.
I think I understand what options are available once you get to that situation, but it would seem to me that in order to get to that in the first place, one group has to notice the other group without being noticed itself. And that is either by design* or by that specific outcome in a first surprise check.
Is this correct? This strikes me as odd because many of the resolutions for sneaking also involve rolling for surprise. I mean, may the other group get to roll for surprise two (almost consecutive) times before being sneaked past? (the first to create the situation where only one group notices the other, and the second to do the actual sneaking for passive watchers or for distracted watchers that succeeded on hearing noices).
*By this I mean that this is established when designing the adventure. Note that it doesn’t matter if it involves some conditions or not. So I consider the two following cases to be situations created “by design”:
(1) The adventure says that when the characters arrive at the tower, they see the guards without being noticed.
(2) The adventure says that, unless the characters get lost during the travel through the forest, they arrive at the tower and see the guards without being noticed. Else, they arrive at the tower very close to the entrance and both groups need to check for surprise.
(EDIT: I edited the third paragraph because it was not clear that the question refered to the second paragraph.)
IANAA, but I believe the answer to your first question is yes. The Judge must determine that the conditions for surprise and sneaking apply before resolving the mechanics. Generally, unless the Judge deems otherwise, the PCs are assumed to be “attentive”, actively seeking adventure and/or loot. The scenario or Judge must determine if the targets are attentive. Conditions known, resolution can begin.
I don’t think this results in duplicate surprise rolls (or any other duplicate roll), unless the Judge decides so – maybe a portion of the party attempts to scout, return, and then bring the entire group with them.
I created a decision tree for surprise and sneaking that may help, here:
Thanks Charles; I actually found your diagram while googling for this before I posted here. It is a nice resource, and I may be misinterpreting something, but I think it does not answer my doubt (at least not directly).
Your diagram starts in a situation in which the “targets” are not aware of the presence of the characters. I am interested not just in what follows, but in how we get there. This situation may typically arise from a surprise roll where the characters succeeded and the “targets” failed (and the situation and encounter distance obtained are appropriate), which is the first surprise roll.
It is true that in some situations the master may have pre-decided that the players start this encounter being aware of their enemies but the enemies are not aware of the characters. However, does it always have to start like this? Can’t regular encounters that start with surprise rolls, given the appropriate result, be resolved by the characters deciding to sneak? It would mean that the “sneaking” approach to “defeating” (bypassing?) an encounter cannot come up spontaneously but is only allowed if the master sets up this situation specifically.
If this is not so, then there you have the situations in which there are two almost consecutive surprise rolls for the same group (the “targets”).
No. As you’ve suggested, one side could surprise the other and then decide to leave before they’re noticed or to sneak past rather than using their surprise round to attack. Another possibility is that one side might already be sneaking even before they know that any potential opposition is present.
situations in which there are two almost consecutive surprise rolls for the same group (the "targets").
If you have surprise for a round, then you have surprise for the round, end of story. You would never roll surprise (or Move Silently/Hide in Shadows) twice in a single round.
If you have surprise and choose to sneak away or sneak past rather than attacking, then you do have to continue rolling each round to see if you’re detected, but I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about as being “two almost consecutive surprise rolls”.
As you've suggested, one side could surprise the other and then decide to leave before they're noticed or to sneak past rather than using their surprise round to attack. Another possibility is that one side might already be sneaking even before they know that any potential opposition is present.
(…)
If you have surprise and choose to sneak away or sneak past rather than attacking, then you do have to continue rolling each round to see if you’re detected, but I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about as being “two almost consecutive surprise rolls”.
Ok; however, does that means that in the first round, after rolling for surprise at the beginning of the encounter, if the characters notice the monsters but not the other way around, they automatically succeed in any (reasonable) sneaking attempt as long as they can finish it in that round?
Another possibility is that one side might already be sneaking even before they know that any potential opposition is present.
Can you do this? To decide to explore in “sneaking mode”? What is the tradeoff? Do you move slower and DISTRACTED enemies must first roll hearing before they can roll surprise to notice you? Is that it? (you still would have to succeed on the surprise roll or else you just run across them and get automatically noticed, right?)
does that means that in the first round, after rolling for surprise at the beginning of the encounter, if the characters notice the monsters but not the other way around, they automatically succeed in any (reasonable) sneaking attempt as long as they can finish it in that round?
I wouldn’t call it “automatic success”, no. You already have surprise (remember that the definition of “surprise” in this context is “you’re aware of them, but they aren’t aware of you”) for this round and nothing will change that, but there’s no guarantee that you’ll still have surprise next round:
If you do something that makes them aware of you (like attacking), then they’ll automatically no longer be surprised (i.e., they’re aware of you) in the following round.
If you don’t do anything to clearly reveal yourself, then they get a new surprise roll (and, if appropriate, Hear Noise/Hide in Shadows/Move Silently) in the following round to determine whether they noticed you anyhow.
Do you move slower and DISTRACTED enemies must first roll hearing before they can roll surprise to notice you? Is that it?
It’s not explicitly spelled out in the rules, but that’s essentially how I’d run it, yes.
Oh; I see. Thank you! I think I have a better understanding of the system now. I guess I should see surprise more like a “countdown” mechanism than a “success/failure” one.
Ok; however, does that means that in the first round, after rolling for surprise at the beginning of the encounter, if the characters notice the monsters but not the other way around, they automatically succeed in any (reasonable) sneaking attempt as long as they can finish it in that round?
If it is a wilderness encounter, they can. “Chases in the wilderness” says: “When one side is surprised in a wilderness encounter, the other side can automatically flee successfully.”
Only in wilderness encounters? From what I understood of the rest of the thread, it is valid for all (reasonalbe) cases.
Also, it does says that the other side can flee succesfully but it doesn’t really says that the first side doesn’t notice the other side fleeing. I don’t fully remember, but I think that there were other cases where the flee attempt succeded automatically that didn’t imply lack of awareness, but other advantage (for example, one side being mounted and the other one is not).