Overrun is Awesome (?)

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1

I had a situation where a PC used Overrun to escape what looked like … certain doom. I want to make sure I understand Overrun. (At the risk of over-complicating matters, I’m asking everything I can think of regarding Overrun to learn your intent.)

If I understand correctly, the only significant limitation to Overrun is that you can’t move (other than Defensive movement) when engaged (so Overrun is right out). Similarly, because you cannot move after attacking, an engaged character cannot drop the opponent engaging them and then Overrun one or more opponents more than 5’ away.

However, if a character begins unengaged, and is lucky, they can Overrun through a wall of opponents to the full extent of their movement, correct?

(I like this, but wonder if there should be a maximum number of Overruns allowed equal to the maximum number of Cleaves for a given character.)

In the case of simultaneous initiative, an opponent is moving to engage a currently unengaged character – that character could Overrun the opponent to avoid engagement, correct?

Is a character engaged if they are 10’ away from a wielder of a second-rank weapon?

Do you know of a good defense against Overruns?

Thank you for your help!

2

If one of the opponents succeeds in their saving throw and chooses to block the character, then the character gets to deal damage to them but the overrun ends. So for every opponent you try to overrun there’s two potential die rolls for you to get stopped on: your attack throw (which is at -4!) and your opponent’s save.

Simultaneous initiative should let you try to overrun. And by the rules, you don’t count as engaged when you’re more than 5’ away from an opponent, even if they have a pole weapon. Presumably it’s too easy for you to break away at that distance.

3

Weaker opponents, like goblins, skeletons or ordinary mercenaries, are likely to be both easier to hit and fail their save. There is an element of luck, but the potential to roll through an army, literally, is there.

You brought up one other question which I thought of overnight. If a character deals damage during an Overrun and drops the opponent, does the Overrun continue.

4

By the letter of the rules, if the foe chooses to block you, and makes the save, you are engaged, however briefly, and thus stopped. The overrun ends.

5

Here’s a question, though. You can’t Overrun while Cleaving, but can you Cleave when you Overrun?

I think yes. It would be awesome, but not ridiculously so.

6

Math time! You’re trying to Overrun a giant group of skeletons to get to the necromancer controlling them.

So at 1st level: Skeleton’s AC is 2, I’m going to assume a fighter with +2 from Str, and a -4 from the Overrun. So, 14+ to hit (35% chance) and the skeleton has a 10% chance to make the save at -4. So a 32% chance of getting past one skeleton. Two skeletons drops your chances to about 10% success. Three, 3%. But at first level, you probably don’t want to be in melee with a necromancer and three skeletons at your back anyway.

How about 4th level? 45% chance to hit with the overrun, skeleton has the same chance to save, so 40% success rate for 1, 16% for 2, 6% for three…

Let’s go all the way and assume you’re 14th level and have a raft of bonuses. You still miss on a 1, so 95% chance to hit, and the skeleton still has a 10% chance to save, so you have an 85% chance of blowing past the first one. 73% the second. 62% the third. 53% the fourth. And so on. If you were literally charging through an army of skeletons, one would eventually stop you long before you reached the end of your movement. And if it didn’t? You’re a 14th level fighter scattering skeletons like bowling pins. I’m kind of OK with that.

7

Although, with Cleave you’ll probably be taking out an extra 14 skeletons on the way through, depending on the spacing.

8

Anal-retentive rules interpretation suggests no. Overrun lets you deal damage as if you had struck in melee, but the special maneuvers seem to be their own thing and not melee attacks proper. And as you note you can’t do any kind of special maneuver in conjunction with a Cleave.

If you do allow it, remember the movement restriction on cleave—you are still subject to your maximum combat movement, and that would include whatever you had used in your overrun up until the point where you got stopped.

9

Ooh, I stand corrected! Good call!

10

 

APM: A few words behind the philosophy of engagement and overrun. ACKS attempts to encourage formation fighting and combined arms. For example, in ACKS its a very viable tactic to have a front row of heavily-armored sword-and-shield, a second row of lightly-armored spear, and a third row of spellcasters. The rules are structured such that it's hard to get to the spellcasters. Because any hit will interrupt spellcasting, it means that mages need warriors to protect them if they're to be valuable in battle.

ACKS: I know that 3.5 had similar design goals, but I felt it's approach was sub-par. The AoO mechanic was a very slow and tedious means of creating zones of control. Moreover, tumbling was far too easy for characters past mid-level who cared about the skill at all. In ACKS we reverted to a true zone of control system (the 5' engagement system) inspired by old wargame-style mechanics. Overrun then becomes necessary as a technique to overcome the zone of control. I wanted a system that allowed, e.g., a high HD creature to be more effective at exerting a zone of control than a low HD creature, and basing it on saving throws proved a good choice.

If I understand correctly, the only significant limitation to Overrun is that you can't move (other than Defensive movement) when engaged (so Overrun is right out).

APM: That's not actually correct. An Overrun is a special maneuver, not a movement. You can begin engaged and attempt an overrun. If you succeed, you can start moving past the creature that was engaging you. If more than one creature was engaging you, though, you'd have to overrun them all.

Similarly, because you cannot move after attacking, an engaged character cannot drop the opponent engaging them and then Overrun one or more opponents more than 5' away.

APM: That is correct.

However, if a character begins unengaged, and is lucky, they can Overrun through a wall of opponents to the full extent of their movement, correct?

APM: You'd have to be quite lucky...As others have pointed out, each opponent can make a saving throw to attempt to block the character.

In the case of simultaneous initiative, an opponent is moving to engage a currently unengaged character -- that character could Overrun the opponent to avoid engagement, correct?

APM: Yes

Is a character engaged if they are 10' away from a wielder of a second-rank weapon?

APM: No

Do you know of a good defense against Overruns?

APM: A scrum of 3-4 defenders, one of whom is statistically likely to either not be hit, or to make his saving throw, usually does the trick. 

 

11

ARISE! [thread necromancy]

After all this time, I have one more clarification on Overrun. When an Overrun attack throw fails (i.e. the opponent doesn’t need to make a saving throw to block the combatant), may the combatant still melee attack the Overrun target? Or does the Overrun attempt count as/expend an attack?

ACKS says “A successful overrun does not count as a combatant’s attack …”

Also, an unsuccessful overrun does not count as a combatant’s attack?

12

And a related question:

Can a character engaged in melee attempt an Acrobatics proficiency throw to tumble behind that opponent in melee?

If not, could the character attempt an Overrun out of melee, and if successful, then attempt an Acrobatics proficiency throw to tumble behind that opponent?

13

Defensive Movement
“Once two opposing combatants are within 5’ of each other, they are engaged in melee. Engaged combatants may not move except to perform defensive movement.” (Defensive Movement, page 101 in Chapter 6: Adventures of ACKS)

Acrobatics
“In lieu of moving during a round, the character may attempt a proficiency throw of 20+ to tumble behind an opponent in melee.” (Acrobatics, page 57 in Chapter 4: Proficiencies of ACKS)

After reading both of these, it seems apparent that you may not tumble, since it would be your movement. When you are engaged you may not move unless performing a fighting withdrawal or a full retreat.

14

CharlesDM, short answer is “YES, you can use Acrobatics while engaged. That is, in fact, its whole point.”

The interplay of the rules is as follows:

DEFENSIVE MOVEMENT
“Once two opposing combatants are within 5’ of each other, they are engaged in melee. Engaged combatants may not move except to perform defensive movement.”

Note that the types of defensive movement are “withdrawal” and “retreat”.

OTHER MOVEMENT
"Instead of moving (or running, charging, setting, withdrawing, or retreating), combatants may perform a simple action that could be accomplished while fighting, such as standing up from being knocked down, sheathing one weapon and drawing another, readying or loosing a shield, picking an item off the ground, or retrieving an item from a pack or sack.

Note that you can conduct simple actions instead of “moving”, and the “moving” it can be instead of includes “withdrawing” and “retreating”, which is to say, defensive movement. Therefore a combatant engaged in melee can sheathe a weapon and draw another, or ready a shield, etc.

ACROBATICS
“In lieu of moving during a round, the character may attempt a proficiency throw of 20+ to tumble behind an opponent in melee.”

The phrase “in lieu of moving” and “instead of moving” are interchangeable in the rules. Therefore Acrobatics should be understood to be a simple action that can be accomplished “instead of moving”, so it can be conducted while engaged.

15

this seems to be in conflict (or I may be misreading) with a clarification on knockdown, wherein engaging someone who is knocked down meant they couldn’t spend their move action to stand up since engaged combatants can’t move. If that’s not the case, knocking down would be quite weak as the combatant can simply stand up immediately every time on their turn.

16

For those who haven’t seen it, the knockdown clarification:

http://autarch.co/forums/ask-autarchs/non-movement-movement

(I was wondering about that too, but personally, I think I’d just make an exception for Acrobatics without any clarification, since it seems so obviously useless if you can’t do it in melee.)

17

My earlier explanation is in direct contradiction to the written text of the rules, which states… “Instead of …withdrawing, or retreating… combatants may perform a simple action that could be accomplished while fighting, such as standing up from being knocked down…”

In my own knockdown clarification I said “The rules are not exceptionally well-written in this case, and I apologize for the confusion… Being knocked down in a melee should be one of the worst things that can happen to a combatant.”

Here is an attempt to update the language to clarify both issues:

OTHER MOVEMENT
Instead of moving, running, charging, or setting for charge, combatants may perform a simple action that could be accomplished in a few seconds, such as standing up from being knocked down, sheathing one weapon and drawing another, readying or loosing a shield, picking an item off the ground, or retrieving an item from a pack or sack. Characters with Acrobatics proficiency may tumble instead of moving.

Instead of withdrawing or retreating, combatants may perform a simple action that could be accomplished while fighting, such as sheathing one weapon and drawing another, readying or loosing a shield, or picking an item off the ground, or retrieving an item from a pack or sack. Characters with Acrobatics proficiency may tumble instead of withdrawing or retreating.

Simply dropping a weapon and drawing a new one does not count as movement during a round.

18

nobody’s perfect, and at this point I’m comfortable fiddling with rules that are slightly vague to suit my own conception of what makes sense, so I wasn’t too broken up about it.

I have to say, though, that all these conversations on the forums about wording clarity have definitely enlightened me as to how the writing style of D&D rulebooks has progressed from 0e to the way pathfinder/4e are written.

19

Likewise!