Cost of Living

General ACKS Forums General Discussion
1

If you had a divine caster class that as part of it's limitation had a restriction in wealth, how would you handle the cost of living expenses?

I'm considering classes like the old school paladin or ranger who have to give away money: 'paladins may not retain more wealth
than they need to feed and keep themselves and their retainers and followers'.

How would you handle this kind of restriction?

2

I've had restrictions on Paladins and active Thieves in my current campaign thus far; Paladins tithe 25% to their order, and Thieves willing or forced to be part of one of the Thieves' Guilds pay a 15% cut. Both get other in-game benefits for these (e.g., the ability to demand shelter, a reliable fence, etc.). I went with these values, particularly for the Paladin, as I didn't want to lock the classes out of the domain endgame. My feeling was that the kind of restriction AD&D had would have done so.

Now, having said that, if I were going to apply that kind of restriction, I'd consider three possiblities:

  1. The Class can get these things, but must be reliant on the generosity of the other party members for any Stronghold or Domain activities they wish to undertake. The Judge needs to think about how this will interact with Domain income (e.g., only apply to surplus). This is not entirely different than a Mage, who often seems to need help raising the funds for their projects.
  2. The Class simply doesn't participate directly in Domain-play. I wouldn't even give such a Class a Stronghold or Follower type. The Judge would also need to make sure players are clear about this up front, but some players aren't interested in Domain activities anyway, so it could probably work. Personally, I think the Class would need to be compensated in some fashion, either mechanically or in-game (e.g., they're viewed in a way they can leverage to their advantage regularly) for this kind of serious restriction, as it's a large part of late-game ACKS play.
  3. Come up with some other way for the Class to obtain its Domain and Stronghold. That might be slave-labour, requiring a managing Henchman Seneschal who gets either a cut or most of the Domain XP, or some other system (e.g., having Divine Power represent actual donated labour and services-in-kind for performing things like construction, upkeep, festivals, etc. which may fit for a Paladin, in particular).
3

The actual rule for paladins from 1e AD&D reads as follows:

[quote=1e AD&D PH, p. 24]They will never retain wealth, keeping only sufficient treasures to support themselves in a modest manner, pay henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors, and to construct or maintain a small castle.[/quote] Emphasis mine.

So the idea of funding a Stronghold is right there in the original source, and is not incompatible with wealth restrictions on the class.

 

4

Well, there you go. I didn't remember the emphasised part, probably because I only once saw someone play one, never mind get one to Name level. I think much of what I wrote is still relevant: Domain-game activities take lots of surplus cash, and this keeps the Paladin from having any. Plus, what's a "small castle?" Single-hex Stronghold? What about Henchmen, can they have money (if they're not also Paladins)? I dunno the answers, I just know what I decided on for my own game, and the fact that it's a serious restriction in a game focused on the Domain end-game.

5

[quote="bobloblah"]

Well, there you go. I didn't remember the emphasised part, probably because I only once saw someone play one, never mind get one to Name level. I think much of what I wrote is still relevant: Domain-game activities take lots of surplus cash, and this keeps the Paladin from having any. Plus, what's a "small castle?" Single-hex Stronghold? What about Henchmen, can they have money (if they're not also Paladins)? I dunno the answers, I just know what I decided on for my own game, and the fact that it's a serious restriction in a game focused on the Domain end-game.

[/quote]

I'd consider "small castle" to refer to the size of the fortress that a Paladin is allowed to construct. Funding limitations on Domain-game activities would, IMO, mainly prevent territorial expansion beyond a single domain - no realm-building Paladins. (Inheriting a realm is a different matter.)

But as Our Host says, "Every campaign is a law unto itself..."

6

Heh…yes, I understand it refers to Stronghold. The question is: what’s the definition of “small?” I think “no Realm” might be a reasonable cutoff, but a 16-hex Domain requires a pretty big Stronghold…

7

[quote="bobloblah"] Heh...yes, I understand it refers to Stronghold. The question is: what's the definition of "small?" I think "no Realm" might be a reasonable cutoff, but a 16-hex Domain requires a pretty big Stronghold... [/quote]

True. As I read the intent in 1e AD&D, the Paladin can play the Domain game, but to a limited extent. As ACKS has tied Stronghold size to Domain size, a Paladin would wind up as more of a Chapter Master for a knightly order, with lands supporting the Chapter House rather than supporting any political ambitions. So, likely not a 16-hex Domain ("fit for a King"), or even a 12-hex Domain (as per Axioms 3 for a 14th level ruler to have no morale penalties). A one-hex domain, definitely. Where in between? "Every campaign is a law unto itself..." How much do you want wealth-restricted Paladins engaging the Domain game? ("Not at all" is obviously an option, and could spur some good game play, as the Paladin supports their landholding companions in different ways.)

8

I'm not really interested in the Domain game element at this moment. My main question is what constitutes 'paladins may not retain more wealth
than they need to feed and keep themselves and their retainers and followers'? The baked in assumptions of ACKS are that as you level you continue a greed spiral of conspicuous consumption. Monthly expenses at high levels pay for your hookers and blow and elephant rides. When you excise the idea that characters are only motivated by voracious greed...what is left of expenses? I mean, I can still get behind the idea that their costs would increase somewhat to reflect their standing as a servent of their god, but clearly nothing like the default assumption.

As to the Domain game, I'm using the assumption of another system which is that at level 9+ you don't build your own castle but reclaim one from an evil or chaotic lord. At that point, they will be allowed (as pointed out above) to maintain money for the needs of the domain, though again not at the hooker and blow level. 

9

I've never worked this out in substantial detail, but we know that 3gp per month is about subsistence level for a peasant. 12gp per month is the wage of 0-level heavy infantry. We can assume that soldiers don't save much, so the other 9gp is more-or-less conspicuously consumed. That gives us a nice ratio of 25% of wage as subsistence. Let's use that as a rule of thumb.

Let's say that a wealth-limited paladin therefore subsides on 1/4 the wage of a character of his level. Since wage approximately doubles per level, that means he spends two levels below his wealth. We could then also rule that his domain size is typically two levels below his character level.

What does a paladin spend his money on? Well, there is a certain inevitable cost in becoming more powerful that cannot be avoided in a pre-industrial service-based society - for instance -- if he actively campaigns he'll need multiple horses. Multiple horses will need tack, grooming, vet care, shoeing. He'll need at least a few suits of armor - tournament/court armor, battle armor, travel armor. Those will need armorers and squires to assist. As a leader of men, he'll have to worry about supplies and wages, which  means paperwork, so a scribe or assistant. He could also be conspicuously charitable - he might make an example of how to spend wealth by running an almshouse or hospital, etc.

We should probably cap this at level 5. That's sufficient income to live like a master craftsman or sea-captain, e.g. upper middle class. We might say that he cannot accumulate more wealth than that, nor spend more per month on living expenses, except towards a stronghold. This also correlates nicely to what we see in real-world organizations which are intended to be charitable -- bishops of the church, say, who certainly live upper middle class lives that a minimum-wage worker would envy, but don't have private jets and yachts like equivalent corproate leadrs. 

That yields:

  1. 6.25gp per month / ~ 180gp total
  2. 12.5gp per month / ~ 375gp total
  3. 25gp per month / ~ 750gp total
  4. 50gp per month / ~ 1500gp total
  5. 100gp per month / ~ 3000gp total

Does that help?

10

Speaking only for myself, that’s awesome!

11

Here I was getting all caught up in Domain-level questions, when all you really cared about was the hookers and blow...

12

[quote="Tywyll"]

As to the Domain game, I'm using the assumption of another system which is that at level 9+ you don't build your own castle but reclaim one from an evil or chaotic lord.

[/quote]

I like this idea a lot; what system is it from, if you don't mind my asking?  I could even see replacing clearing hexes with overthrowing a natural / monstrous "wilderness lord" (think Oberon, Arawn, &c) to reclaim a realm for man and Law.

13

It's in Blood & Treasure. Yeah, I like the Wilderness Lord addition as well!

14

[quote="bobloblah"]

Here I was getting all caught up in Domain-level questions, when all you really cared about was the hookers and blow...

[/quote]

Pretty much, yup! ;)
BAsically it's only a 5th level character so Domain stuff is still kinda far off.

15

[quote="Alex"]

That yields:

  1. 6.25gp per month / ~ 180gp total
  2. 12.5gp per month / ~ 375gp total
  3. 25gp per month / ~ 750gp total
  4. 50gp per month / ~ 1500gp total
  5. 100gp per month / ~ 3000gp total

Does that help?

[/quote]

Yes, this is helpful but I don't quite follow the format of your table? Are you saying that a 5th level could hold 100gp extra or 3000? What's the difference between the two numbers?

Otherwise, thanks for the input!

16

[quote="Tywyll"]

 

 

That yields:

  1. 6.25gp per month / ~ 180gp total
  2. 12.5gp per month / ~ 375gp total
  3. 25gp per month / ~ 750gp total
  4. 50gp per month / ~ 1500gp total
  5. 100gp per month / ~ 3000gp total

Does that help?

 


-Alex

 

Yes, this is helpful but I don't quite follow the format of your table? Are you saying that a 5th level could hold 100gp extra or 3000? What's the difference between the two numbers?

Otherwise, thanks for the input!

[/quote]

My idea was that the 5th level or higher character could have expected expenses of 100gp per month, and maximum net worth of 3,000gp. That would be enough to live like a master craftsman or sea-captain. They might have a pair of heavy warhorses, a small homestead, a squire and a horse-groom, clothes good enough to get buy in polite society. 

If you want them to be at the mendicant vow-of-poverty level then perhaps they can't accumulate more than 100gp at a time. E.g. they live month to month.