In some of the publicity stuff I’ve been doing, a continual process of figuring out what’s cool about ACKS and how to crystallize it for others, I’ve found myself talking about a particular class-related path I find really compelling:
ACKS builds on the foundation of its predecessors by providing an integrated economic framework that seamlessly handles the transition from finding your first scroll in a dungeon and scribing it into your spellbook, to planning the caravan routes that will keep you supplied with the exotic beast parts that make your inks, to building a dungeon of your own beneath your wizards’ tower so you can harvest ritual components from the resident monsters."
This progression of activities for wizards I think is really awesome, both because it has something for wizards to be investing gold in at every “tier” of play, and because it gives the rest of the party ways to get involved - not just helping the wizard get gold (although GP and economics is a great focus precisely because it is universal and concrete) but also seeking scrolls as treasure, guiding the caravans, manning the tower and scouring out the dungeon, etc.
It gets me thinking about how this plays out for other classes. Thieves’ progression toward starting a thieves’ guild is obvious, as is fighters’ progression toward a stronghold.
Some questions:
Are there enough inter-related activities along these pathways? Do we need to provide more lower-level stuff that’s part of a fighter or thief’s journey?
I’m thinking that for a cleric, the path to a church would involve tracking worshippers. Should we have rules for how expenditure into making converts translates into gaining faithful adherents, with modifiers similar to the trade demands table?
Should there be a pathway for each class, or is the general fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric breakdown archetypical enough that most characters will tend to pursue activities along one or the other pathway? (I like the theory that nonhuman classes would have separate pathways, but am having a hard time visualizing how their activities would be different.)
Tavis - I think the 4 main economic paths should work for any class permutations. I’ll go through and re-read to get a stronger opinion on how the approaches are set up right now. My general take is that Magic Users spend the most along the way (transcribing spells, maintaining books and libraries) and it sounds like they have significant construction for their tower and dungeon, without a corresponding income from taxes. Many times they have to get subsidized along the way by other players. I’ll look at it all some more this evening.
I did have some other observations for the campaign/economics section - maybe I missed these:
Regarding demographics, was there anything on a percentage of leveled/classed characters? Ie, how many clerics and magic-users per 1,000 people?
How does magic change the default world? How much does it cost to have spells performed by an NPC spell caster? (I do realize some of the practical effects of magic on battlefield strategy are coming in the mass combat book- wahoo).
Still thinking through the implications of the “carouse to pass on XP to your next character” rule. It goes to the question, if 80% of XP comes from treasure, how to keep adventuring from destroying the economy? Most name level guys will have a half million GP. The XP for Inheritance rule is a metagame approach to drain the coffers, and fits a Swords & Sorcery vibe. Glad to see no ‘training rules’.
I’m very interested in seeing the development of these economic pathways. Currently, I’m concerned that wizards have a pathway all the way up, but that the other classes basically have their path start at level 9. The wizard’s path goes:
Low-level: copying spells into spellbook; Mid-level: getting rare components through trade; high-level (9+): building your own sanctum and dungeon to “farm” components.
But the fighter/cleric and thief economic paths go:
Low-level: almost nothing; Mid-level: almost nothing; high-level (9+): building and developing your stronghold/hideout
You could say that low-level character buy equipment and go on adventures, but that’s not really a distinct part of their path.
There may be an implied path for fighters and clerics:
Low-level: fight on your own as part (but not really leader) of a small group; mid-level: lead several of your retainers; possibly fight as a hero/knight accompanying someone else’s army in the service of a lord or a high priest; beginning high-level: building and developing your domain, with your own small army and some trusted retainers to support you; later high-level: building your realm, with your former retainers now your vassals ruling domains of their own, and leading large armies that include small armies led by your vassals
I can also see an even weaker implied path for thieves, following a similar pattern–it’s weaker because the hideout rules don’t currently directly support the idea of a boss of bosses. You can set up as a capo with your own hideout and a crew that works for you, but the rules don’t directly address how to move up to the stage where a thief is acting as an overall boss, with several subordinate capos who each have their own hideouts and crews. Without that addition, the later high-level thief path is only implied. Presumably, by the time that fighters are trying to become god-emperor of the world (i.e. 14th level), a thief should be trying to become the master thief who runs the world-spanning underworld, with a branch in every city worth the name, the ability to destabilize or topple kingdoms from within, and periodic gang wars to prevent independent syndicates from starting up… but the rules don’t as yet detail that, in the way that they do cover turning a small domain in the wilderness into a world-spanning realm of thousands of domains with a large hierarchy of vassals.
Expanding and making more explicit these paths would be great. It also leverages the game’s competitive advantage–what makes ACK interesting to me is domains and realms, hideouts and economics and trade. To the extent that that mostly waits until 9th level, except for the occasional character who jumps the gun without direct mechanical benefits, it makes the game less interesting. I’d love to see, e.g., rules for developing religious followers, both in terms of numbers and devotion. Ideally, like with the thief hijinks rules, that would provide hooks for lots of adventures (“Conflict with established authority: some of your followers have been declared heretics and rounded up by the established religious authorities in the area. What do you do?” “Strange religious beliefs develop among some of your followers; how do you react?”)
On the topic of separate paths: the non-human paths currently seem kinda boring. “It’s like you’re a fighter with a stronghold, but your followers are all dwarves instead of humans!” Ummm… yay. That feels really special. The big 4 (almost big 3, because currently the cleric path and the fighter path are mostly only cosmetically different) are basically archetypical enough that non-humans can be shoehorned into them without much trouble, but things that make them feel different or cool would be awesome.
The Rules Cyclopedia basically had demihumans establish a homestead, and their relations / clan shows up and moves in. There is something to that idea that fits with race-as-class, where demihumans are an alien culture, and to outsiders (humans) they all kind inscrutable. (I been rationalizing the race-as-class thing as more a function of the human’s ignorance about the other races. ‘All dwarves look alike’ kind of thing.)
So in that vein, the I like the idea that the game implies that demihumans have a whole different set of cultural obligations going on that they have to deal with in their economic paths. Like a Dwarves are ‘bondsmen’ to their dwarven liege, and before they can gain their freedom, they must accomplish 7 great tasks, (like smith a magic battle axe that is deemed sufficiently worthy, or lead an expedition into the abandoned dwarven cities under the mountains, etc.) The successful accomplishment of these tasks could fill the midlevel range, so when the get to their level cap, they are ready to establish a new mine or workshop as a free dwarf.
The elves would have their own ‘elven thing’ that would determine their economic path. The notion that demihumans are more tied to their clan then humans are is an interesting one- it implies that human society is more fractious, and focused on political ties.
For Thieves and Fighters, their path seems pretty straightforward. but the Cleric is an odd one, because (Based on the description of the petty squabbling gods in the setting) how much esteem their god holds them is the thing they are building up, not money or military might. And indeed if more worshippers the Cleric brings to the god increases that god’s power, then whatever activity gets worshipers will be the one rewarded. The only thing, is that for a lawful nature god, or a chaotic god of assassins, the activity will vary a lot. For one building a beautiful cathedral would be the best route, while for the other establishing a secretive assassin cult would be best.
I kind of like the idea that it is open to the player as to what is the best route to gain their god’s favor. And the DM can decide how the god is liking or disliking what the cleric is doing.
Regarding demographics, was there anything on a percentage of leveled/classed characters? Ie, how many clerics and magic-users per 1,000 people?
ALEX: Currently this information is calculated using an Excel spreadsheet. I’m still trying to decide what the best way to convey it is - a simple chart at some size of population, a web tool, etc.
How does magic change the default world? How much does it cost to have spells performed by an NPC spell caster? (I do realize some of the practical effects of magic on battlefield strategy are coming in the mass combat book- wahoo).
ALEX: Cost and availability of spells is listed in the Hirelings section of v16 of the rules (the latest download). It costs 500gp to get a Restore Life & Limb spell, with about a 50% chance of such a spell being available in a Class III market.
ALEX: I think the largest changes between a historical world and a magical world would be in war and in healthcare. War I’ve already discussed - I think it would be more Napoleonic. Healthcare would, specifically, see wealthy families enjoy far less infant and child mortality, and reduced death from accidents and disease. I estimate that life expectancy at birth would increase from a historical 30 years to a magical 45 years or more and life expectancy of wealthy adults would approach modern levels.
Still thinking through the implications of the “carouse to pass on XP to your next character” rule. It goes to the question, if 80% of XP comes from treasure, how to keep adventuring from destroying the economy? Most name level guys will have a half million GP. The XP for Inheritance rule is a metagame approach to drain the coffers, and fits a Swords & Sorcery vibe. Glad to see no ‘training rules’.
ALEX: Adventuring won’t destroy the economy. It’s likely to be considered part of the economy, in the same way that raiding and looting always has been. Consider that most historical empires were based on looting. The Roman Empire had a constant influx of cash from conquest, invasion, and tribute from its neighbors. So did the Mongol Empire, Alexandrian Empire, and so on. To put things in perspective, when Alexander the Great conquered the city of Susa, the treasure hoard was (ACKS-equivalent) 54,000,000gp and 240,000,000sp. The net worth of the Auran Emperor is about 150,000,000gp.
ALEX: That said, money buys power. An adventurer who has become as wealthy as a duke will probably be a duke – or at least have the temporal power of one.
There may be an implied path for fighters and clerics:
Low-level: fight on your own as part (but not really leader) of a small group; mid-level: lead several of your retainers; possibly fight as a hero/knight accompanying someone else’s army in the service of a lord or a high priest; beginning high-level: building and developing your domain, with your own small army and some trusted retainers to support you; later high-level: building your realm, with your former retainers now your vassals ruling domains of their own, and leading large armies that include small armies led by your vassals
ALEX: The Fighter/Cleric path is exactly as you have described. (I don’t think it’s any less explicit (or more implicit) than the Mage path, though. I think the Mage path is just more familiar because it shows up in other RPGs.) I envision mid-level Fighters having bands of retainers and mercenaries who support their personal heroics. Robin Hood & the Merry Men, Achilles & the Myrmidons, Beowulf & the Geats, etc.
I can also see an even weaker implied path for thieves, following a similar pattern–it’s weaker because the hideout rules don’t currently directly support the idea of a boss of bosses. You can set up as a capo with your own hideout and a crew that works for you, but the rules don’t directly address how to move up to the stage where a thief is acting as an overall boss, with several subordinate capos who each have their own hideouts and crews. Without that addition, the later high-level thief path is only implied. Presumably, by the time that fighters are trying to become god-emperor of the world (i.e. 14th level), a thief should be trying to become the master thief who runs the world-spanning underworld, with a branch in every city worth the name, the ability to destabilize or topple kingdoms from within, and periodic gang wars to prevent independent syndicates from starting up… but the rules don’t as yet detail that, in the way that they do cover turning a small domain in the wilderness into a world-spanning realm of thousands of domains with a large hierarchy of vassals.
ALEX: I agree here. You are entirely correct that we need to further flesh out these rules. It’s not written down in ACKS, but in the Auran Empire campaign, Thieves gained an additional 1d6 followers every level, among other things.
ALEX: I will take a second look overall at ways we can make the paths more explicit and perhaps mechanically represented at lower level.
Jeff Reints did a series of blog posts called ‘canonical BX to do list:’, one for each class. Whilst not riveting reads they are very useful at tracking what opportunities a given character of a given level has if they’re not a PC. To me, that screams economic pathway.
I’m not suggesting putting tables like that in the book (though there may be some value in them as downloads), however if the pathways are documented like that somewhere at Autarch HQ then you are able to see what the classes might be doing as they level and what opportunities exist to take their hard earned gold off them.
For example, as fighters level up they get the chance to build strongholds, so that’s one hell of a money sink right there. At lower levels, what are they doing? Equally, for an NPC wizard, I’m thinking one of the obvious economic opportunities is in the creation and sale of magical items. Knowing that, and highlighting it, directly supports the idea that magical items can be bought in settlements - not every mage will have enough gold to build a tower (not every mage will want to build a tower, despite that being the norm) - and they still have to eat.