Help! I keep killing the party

Not sure which forum to put this in, so I’ve gone with AtA, as it seems the most advice-oriented, although I am definitely interested in everybody’s viewpoints.

(Also, note to the members of my group–Knightware, Saturday players–who read this forum, please by so kind as to avoid this thread.)

So here’s the problem: after about 6 months of play (~8 hours every other week), the highest level member of the party is… 2. For a few sessions, there was a lvl 3 guy, but he was unceremoniously turned to stone this past weekend, so back to level one he goes.

The group consists of one player who has been playing since the days of editions whose nomenclature is far beyond my ken, and then a bunch of relative newcomers to role-playing games (all of us having started with 3rd edition of the game-which-must-not-be-named ™ or later). I’ve run several campaigns of 3.5 and Pathfinder with a fair bit of success, and the group is excited about ACKS, constant deaths not-withstanding.

They like the heightened sense of danger in relation to later editions, and I like that the world obeys rules according to it’s own logic, rather than the party’s power. In Pathfinder, for example, if you are wandering around, then the game is only going to throw level appropriate encounters at you. In ACKS, this is most definitely not the case. This is good; everyone likes it. The party has learned to carefully select which wilderness encounters to engage in, and is figuring out that things are much safer back nearer the civilized territories than out in the borderlands.

However, even sticking to civilized regions and not going any further than the first level of the dungeons and going through them very carefully, nobody has made it past 3rd level (and only 1 player made it to 3rd level). I generate my dungeons according to the rulebook. Draw map, roll to find out the contents of the rooms, then assign the contents to rooms in a way that makes internal sense. I generate random wilderness and wandering monster encounters according to the rulebooks, but everybody keeps dying, and people are starting to get a little tired of it.

I don’t want to turn on easy mode and start filtering out all level-inappropriate encounters, save-or-die effects, or the like, nor do I want for my monsters–the intelligent ones at least–to start behaving like idiots. However, I also want the players to get to higher levels.

One of the biggest problems we’ve come up against is the dearth of henchmen. If everyone could get a full coterie of henchmen then they would be doing much better, but they are mostly wandering around Class VI and the occasional Class V market, which means d2 0th level men and a small % chance of a single level 1 henchman available for hire. I guess we could spend 6 months wandering from barony to barony, fastidiously avoiding all encounters, until enough henchmen can be acquired, but that hardly seems like the right solution.

Clearly, though, people are reaching higher levels in ACKS campaigns out there in the world, so we must be doing something wrong.

So, I’m hoping to solicit advice on:

(1) Things I can do to help the party reach higher levels which are not simply “go easier on them.” If we wanted to play an /easy/ game, I’d run more Pathfinder.

(2) Things I might be doing incorrectly that would improperly increase the lethality of the system.

(3) Advice I could give to the players to help them keep themselves alive.

(4) Anything else that is relevant that I don’t know enough to ask.

Thank you, everyone!

P.S.: Telling them to spend frivolously more isn’t useful. They already spend almost all their money frivolously anyways (that which doesn’t go towards buying the best mundane equipment and hiring henchmen is drunk/gambled/donated away). But even that gets them a thousand XP or so with a starting character, but then he dies and they are back to 0 with the next.

For #2:
Characters shouldn’t actually die all the time. Most characters should survive a trip to the Mortal Wounds table unless an unengaged monster spends an action to kill them after they drop.

Of course, if wounded characters are being abandoned by their mates (or the whole party is being killed) that’s a different problem.

For #3:
The name of the game at low levels is “treasure extraction”. You’re not here to fight, you’re here to loot. Parley or run from monsters unless you have the advantage (surprise or numbers). Initiative bonuses are really helpful.

Lots of people will probably offer more advice, hope this helps.

witness wrote: For #2: Characters shouldn't actually die all the time. Most characters should survive a trip to the Mortal Wounds table unless an unengaged monster spends an action to kill them after they drop.

Of course, if wounded characters are being abandoned by their mates (or the whole party is being killed) that’s a different problem.

Lots of people will probably offer more advice, hope this helps.

There is a fairly high mortal wounds mortality rate in the group. They aren’t often abandoned, but here’s what happens.

1st level fighter with, lets say, 5 HP. If he is at -3 or lower (not hard to reach) then he’s at -5 on the table. He’s probably treated after the fight, since people are too busy fighting to heal him up, which is another -3. They’re all 1st level, so it is mundane healing only, so +2 from someone having the healing proficiency. +1 for his CON. So he’s at -5. If he rolls a 15 or lower, he has to be healed to 1HP within a turn or die, but since they are all 1st level, the only healing they have available is comfrey, which can give him a maximum of 3HP back, and he’s dead.

If he was at -2 HP, then he is at -2 on the mortal wounds roll, so on a 12-, he really needs to get a 3 on that comfrey d3 to be saved. On a 17-13, he’d better hope the party is within a day’s travel of a town which has access to some better healing.

I can see where at higher levels the table might not be horribly deadly, but at the lower ones it has certainly proved to be for us, due to low max-HP and the scarcity of magical healing.

The point about treasure extraction is helpful, though. I will be sure to remind them of that.

For #2: Characters shouldn't actually die all the time. Most characters should survive a trip to the Mortal Wounds table unless an unengaged monster spends an action to kill them after they drop.

Of course, if wounded characters are being abandoned by their mates (or the whole party is being killed) that’s a different problem.

Lots of people will probably offer more advice, hope this helps.

There is a fairly high mortal wounds mortality rate in the group. They aren’t often abandoned, but here’s what happens.

1st level fighter with, lets say, 5 HP. If he is at -3 or lower (not hard to reach) then he’s at -5 on the table. He’s probably treated after the fight, since people are too busy fighting to heal him up, which is another -3. They’re all 1st level, so it is mundane healing only, so +2 from someone having the healing proficiency. +1 for his CON. So he’s at -5. If he rolls a 15 or lower, he has to be healed to 1HP within a turn or die, but since they are all 1st level, the only healing they have available is comfrey, which can give him a maximum of 3HP back, and he’s dead.

If he was at -2 HP, then he is at -2 on the mortal wounds roll, so on a 12-, he really needs to get a 3 on that comfrey d3 to be saved. On a 17-13, he’d better hope the party is within a day’s travel of a town which has access to some better healing.

I can see where at higher levels the table might not be horribly deadly, but at the lower ones it has certainly proved to be for us, due to low max-HP and the scarcity of magical healing.

The point about treasure extraction is helpful, though. I will be sure to remind them of that.

edit by Thomas Weigel: trying to fix the forum glitch, no content changes.

Fair point, “most” is probably an overstatement. One thing you could do is allow them to start with max hp at 1st level.

Also, classes with healing on their proficiency list could have two ranks at first level, allowing them a 15% chance of curing light wounds on up to 4 patients per day (or 30% for a dwarven craftpriest).

Some of the parties we’ve seen posted to the forums have seemed to treat healing like a classic “proficiency tax”, with multiple characters with two ranks.

Selecting healing twice? Sorry but “You are doing it wrong!” ™
I am playing full-time healer in a Play-by-Mail game and I really like how healing is its own niche in ACKS. I often ran the numbers and from what I have seen in game as a player and GM I can give you the following advice:
Get someone who is completely dedicated to healing and you wont have to fear the mortal wounds table!

You need Healing 3, so either get an Antiquarian Witch (no int bonus needed) or a Priestess with at least Int 13. If you manage to squeeze in Lay on Hands on top its even better!
This character probably wont fight so there is no excuse to wait after the battle to treat the wounded, you probably can get the +2 bonus for treatment after one round most of the time.
Instead of just rolling on the table let the healer make a proficiency check with Woundworth to reduce the required roll to 12+. On a success they just gained a +4 for the mortal wounds table (cure serious is a level 4 spell).

With all that combined (and max HP at first level) you should roll with an average of +4 to +5 on the table every time. Healing spells should be reserved for these guys who are still at 0 or lower after receiving Comfrey, thats also where a second clerical class in the party and lay on hands truly shine.

I’d say start them at level 3 for best survivability, and/or start at level 1 with full HP, and/or allow each to play multiple characters at level 1 as a “character funnel” and then let them play the survivors on higher levels…

If you have an arcane caster in the party, allow them to learn sleep. That can turn most of the initial encounters in a cakewalk, at least one per day (when fighting spiders, for example).
One optional rule that I use to help leveling up is to give XP for exploration inside of the dungeon. It is a flat amount per 10’ square of rooms and corridors, so it is very helpful at low levels, and it will get less relevant at high levels (level 3 is the maximum character level for now).
I have a somehow high mortality on my games, but most of half of the time is because of the players being reckless. You should not tamper with a device which has a corpse next to it, right?

Hi Bascaria! First off, I appreciate your players' enthusiasm for ACKS. The fact that they've stuck to it despite such fatalities is impressive. Here are a few thoughts.

1. The lack of a Class IV or Class III city within reasonable proximity to the PCs is hurting them. With access to a decent-sized city, the PCs can hire henchmen, purchase scrolls, and, most importantly, buy restore-life-and-limb spells for fallen or maimed comrades. I don't think I have ever run an ACKS campaign when there wasn't at least a Class IV city within a week's ride.

2. Numbers in the party. How large is your group, and how many characters do they enter the dungeon with? ACKS assumes old-school sized parties of about 6 PCs accompanied by henchmen. My play group here in my home campaign rolls into dungeons with about 12 characters plus a couple war dogs, with another set of mercenaries up top to guard the pack animals and watch over the treasure as its hauled to the surface.

3. Availability of key spells. Do you have a mage capable of casting sleep? Sleep is the tactical nuke of lower-level play. Most of the time if there's no mage, or he doesn't have sleep, my players will invest the time and money in hiring a mage and/or learning the spell. 

4. Evading wilderness encounters. Do they evade every wilderness encounter they can? Do they flee from the ones they fail to evade? Wilderness encounters are deadly for low-level characters. In my home campaigns, my players evade or flee from 75-90% of their wilderness encounters, even as high as 4th or 5th level.

5. Starting Hit Points. I personally always allow PCs to have maximum starting hp at first level. I know some of the old-school Taliban frown on this practice, which is why I made it an optional rule, but I think ACKS is hard enough even with max hp at level 1.

6. Battle tactics. At low level play, battle tactics become very important. Generally the group should have 2 heavily-armored fighters with weapon and shield in a front rank; 2 fighter-types with spears in the second rank; mages and clerics in third rank; and then thieves with bows and slings in a rear rank. I apologize if this is self-evident, but I've seen many players used to 3.5-style tactics fail to use these tactics. 

7. Insufficient Treasure. In your campaign notes above, you didn't mention whether you were double-checking that random treasure generation equated to 5x monster XP. That's a very important step. Too little treasure will leave your PCs unable to advance no matter how skilled they are.

8. Bad luck on the magic item tables. Over the life of a campaign, purely random treasure distribution will tend to even out. But because of the above-average lethality of low-level play, the treasure that a party finds at their early levels can have a disproprotionate effect on the game. Each class has a couple key items that make a huge difference at low levels, even though they become much less important at high level. Knowing this, I tend to hand place them scattered about. Keep in mind that the treasure tables are there to guide you, not handcuff you.

The key items are elven cloak & boots (thieves); staff of healing (cleric); magic sword, magic armor/shield (fighter); wand of paralyzation (mage). If you look at classic old-school modules, like B2 Keep on the Borderlands, you'll see that Gary Gygax systematically places these items. 

What I'd start with, if I were you, would be to announce that the treasure flowing into the realm has caused one of your Class V cities to develop into a Class IV city, and that opportunity for adventure is attracting enough henchmen and mercenaries that it counts as Class III for NPC and spell availability purposes. This is entirely reasonable and sensible within the context of an ACKS world. (Again, the guidelines are there to help you, not handcuff you). That will let the PCs buff up with lots of hirelings, which should help them survive the challenges ahead. 

 

In my Play-By-Post forum game, in order to move things along (forums games are notoriously slow and short-lived) I’m actually doubling the treasure. So that’s 8 GP worth of treasure for every 1 XP worth of monsters.

(And it still seems terribly slow.)

If this is a mandatory character role to fill, then the whole ACKS design seems over-lethal.

Thank you, Alex and everyone else, this is extremely helpful!

To your points, Alex:

(1) There is a Class IV within reasonable distance (the nearest Class III is still some distance away, though still reachable; ~10 24-mile hexes if I had to guess without my maps in front of me). I felt like at some point I read something saying that the party should start out dealing exclusively with the smaller settlements, so I had been steering them away from the bigger towns and cities. No more!

(2) Group fluctuates, but around 6 PCs is where we’re at. They are hurting for henchmen, though. That’ll be fixed.

(3) They do have sleep, and the biggest disasters so far have been when the single sleeper has been absent. I’ll try and get another sleep caster into the party to fix this.

(4) Evading wilderness encounters they do very well thanks to a plethora of paranoid explorers.

(5) I hadn’t done this, but will begin to do so.

(6) I had to explicitly tell them this one a few sessions ago when I realized it myself. They were definitely 3.x-ing the tactics up, and the results were detrimental.

(7) I had completely forgotten this guideline. Hmm, time to go check all my dungeons.

(8) I did not know this at all! The magic weapons/armor is obvious enough, but they have none of the other stuff. Time to check those dungeon treasures again!

I’ll also bump their nearest Class IV town into a Class III city for hiring henchmen. I think you’re going to be their new favorite person after they find out all the nice things you told me to do for them.

To deal with the henchman recruitment issue in small towns, I let my players advertise for mercenaries and carousers, then try to hire them on as henchmen when they show up. They take a -2 penalty on the recruitment roll for the bait-and-switch, but they are charismatic enough to overcome that most of the time.

I mean small markets, not small towns…

In addition to the systematic stuff mentioned above, at a campaign level I would look for NPCs who might take an interest in the party and steer them to some big scores in terms of treasure. This will help PCs level at the same time as tying them into the world. It's not easy mode because more money = more problems. For example, maybe their benefactor is anonymous at first and just sends them a letter saying "a poorly guarded caravan engaged in the slave trade will be crossing a desolate mountain pass three nights from now." If the players take action they do indeed find a situation where the GP-to-XP ratio is well above average. (Looking at the treasure tables you can see that they'll sometimes generate similarly sweet hauls, so you're not doing it wrong.)

Now the players are happy because they have some levels under their belt and some gold to spend, which means that everything you do to them in consequence - attacks by mercenaries hired to regain the caravan's losses, the revelation that their anonymous benefactor is a rival in the slave trade and the worse of two evils, the moral dilemmas about what to do with slaves captured during these raids - will be met with the gleeful over-confidence of players with double-digit hit points, and you can start killing them all over again with a clear conscience ;)

Yeah, I read that thought I was looking at a 4e char-op post. :smiley:

I'm glad to be of service! I hope that helps your players get some momentum.

Of your six party members, what is the party composition? (What class is everybody, I mean).

Currently they have (level in parenthesis):

Explorer, Nightblade, Craftpriest, Bard, Fighter, and Spellsword.

Of course, we ended the last session with the group in a rather perilous position, so 5 days hence it could be completely different.

As they are mostly level 1, henchmen are almost entirely 0th level men.

That's a pretty good party. They are going to increase in arcane casting power quite slowly, but I've seen worse class assortments...

Good luck! I hope the advice from various folks helps your group achieve some more success.