Honor/Shame and Levels

Hi all,

I’ve been thinking about honor based societies, and how they connect to the implied game world.

To be clear about what I mean, I’m not talking about what we tend to think of as personal honor, ie, a code of ethics, but rather something more like a reputation based society, one in which one is mostly concerned about not “losing face” as opposed to “being right” or being “good”. Societies in which insulting someone is cause for a duel, or where people go to great lengths to have a good name or family name. In Norse epics, people would hunt down and kill enemies for calling them names, and in Japan, Samurai would commit suicide over loss of face. This kind of thing…

I sense that some of this is present in the rules: reputation effecting hirelings, character “upkeep” depending on level (high level characters must maintain a more elaborate lifestyle) attracting followers at high level, the presence of bards, and even the need to return, alive, from an adventure to gain xp. There was also a discussion earlier about temprally powerful people being high level.

To bring this idea more to the fore, could one think of level as a sort of reputation level, with the understanding that character power lives and dies by a combination of skill and reputation, and that this is so ingrained in characters that they need to boost this reputation in order to gain levels? Bards could then do things like spread your story around for bonus party xp, maybe…

Another interesting avenue for this would be that having someone loudly and publically insult your ability would risk you actually losing a level unless you did something about it.

It’s a rough idea, but I’m interested in hearing if it sparks anyone’s interest.

Pete

To be clear about what I mean, I'm not talking about what we tend to think of as personal honor, ie, a code of ethics, but rather something more like a reputation based society, one in which one is mostly concerned about not "losing face" as opposed to "being right" or being "good". Societies in which insulting someone is cause for a duel, or where people go to great lengths to have a good name or family name. In Norse epics, people would hunt down and kill enemies for calling them names, and in Japan, Samurai would commit suicide over loss of face. This kind of thing...

APM: Thank you for noting the difference between a code of ethics and a code of honor. Have you read "Honor: A History"? The author describes how the West has entirely lost the concept of honor. To the point where we have to explain what we mean in a way that Achilles or Beowulf never would have

In any event, to address your questions/ideas. Throughout the design of ACKS we kept flirting with the idea of a separate Honor System, similar to that presented by David Cook in Oriental Adventures. Honor would modify henchmen loyalty, number of followers, level at which you get followers, and so on.

Ultimately, we did not include the system, for several reasons. First, we already had several game mechanics affecting those areas: class, level, proficiencies, and Charisma. Second, it would have required hard-coding a certain view of honor that made the game less flexible (e.g. Bushido, Chivalry, Stoic, etc). Third, it seemed to clash with the implicit assumption in the game that your honor improved with your classes. 

If you are interested, here are the rules we developed, but did not adopt:

Reputation

Each time an adventurer advances in level, he earns a reputation based on his deeds. To keep track of his adventurer’s reputation, the player should record the following information:

·     The adventurer’s most impressive exploit during the preceding level

·     The adventurer’s alignment when he gained his level

·     The location where the adventurer gained his level (usually the settlement where he returned with treasure and trophies). This is the source of the adventurer’s reputation.

 

The adventurer will be well-known for his exploits in a local region around the source, and will be somewhat known throughout regions neighboring the local region. The Regional Reputation Table shows the extent to which an adventurer’s reputation will extend. For instance, a 3rd level fighter who saved a village from goblins will be well known as a “goblin-slayer” throughout the village, and somewhat known throughout the neighboring barony.

Regional Reputation Table

Class Level

Well Known Throughout

Somewhat Known Throughout

1st

Own household

-

2nd

Local manor or hamlet

Neighboring small barony or large village

3rd

Local tiny barony or village

Neighboring barony or large village

4th

Local small barony or large village

Neighboring march or town

5th

Local barony or large village

Neighboring county

6th

Local march or town

Neighboring large county

7th

Local county

Neighboring small duchy or big city

8th

Local large county

Neighboring duchy

9th

Local small duchy or big city

Neighboring province or principality

10th

Local duchy

Neighboring small kingdom or large province

11th

Local province or principality

Neighboring kingdom

12th

Local small kingdom or large province

Entire continent

13th

Local kingdom

Entire known world

14th

Entire continent

Neighboring worlds

 

When an adventurer reaches 4th level his expanding reputation begins to affect his reaction rolls in regions where he is well known. Well-known lawful adventurers gain a +1 bonus to their reaction rolls with lawful and neutral creatures, but a -1 penalty with chaotic creatures. Well-known chaotic adventurers gain a +1 bonus with chaotic creatures, but a -1 penalty with lawful and neutral creatures. Neutral adventurers gain a +1 bonus to their reaction rolls in non-hostile circumstances (such as approaching under a flag of truce) and a -1 penalty in hostile circumstances (e.g. smashing in a dungeon door).

When an adventurer reaches 9th level, the effect of his reputation increases again. Where he is well-known, he now has a +2/-2 modifier to reaction rolls. NPC allies gain a +1 bonus to morale rolls, while NPC opponents suffer a -1 penalty to morale rolls.  In regions where he is only somewhat known, he exerts a +1/-1 modifier to reaction rolls.

At 14th level, the adventurer’s reputation is such that he has a +3/-3 modifier to reaction rolls and +2/-2 modifier to morale rolls where he is well-known. In regions where he is only somewhat known, he exerts a +2/-2 modifier to reaction rolls and a +1/-1 modifier on morale rolls.

These effects are summarized on the Effects of Reputation Table.

 

 

Effects of Reputation Table

Class Level

If Well Known

If Somewhat Known

1st

-

-

2nd

-

-

3rd

-

-

4th

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

-

5th

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

-

6th

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

-

7th

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

-

8th

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

-

9th

+2/-2 reaction roll modifier, +1/-1 morale modifier

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

10th

+2/-2 reaction roll modifier, +1/-1 morale modifier

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

11th

+2/-2 reaction roll modifier, +1/-1 morale modifier

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

12th

+2/-2 reaction roll modifier, +1/-1 morale modifier

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

13th

+2/-2 reaction roll modifier, +1/-1 morale modifier

+1/-1 reaction roll modifier

14th

+3/-3 reaction roll modifier, +2/-2 morale modifier

+2/-2 reaction roll modifier, +1/-1 morale modifier

 

EXAMPLE: Marcus, a Lawful fighter, earns his 4th level when he returns to a local Jutland baron’s castle with the head of minotaur. Throughout the barony he becomes known as the Bull-slayer. In this region he is well-known, and has a +1 to reaction rolls with Lawful and Neutral NPCs, but -1 to reaction rolls with Chaotic NPCs. When he travels to a neighboring barony he is somewhat known, and not known at all in a distant kingdom. Years later, Marcus earns his 13th level of experience when he slays the great dragon Aisoth and returns with its treasure to the city of Arganos. He is now known throughout the entire kingdom of Southern Argollë, where he has +2 to reaction rolls with Lawful and Neutral NPCs and -2 with Chaotic NPCs. He is so famous that he is somewhat known worldwide, where he gains +1 to reaction rolls with Lawfuls and Neutrals and -1 with Chaotics.

Conflicting Reputations

If an adventurer travels extensively and changes his alignment during his career, it’s possible he might have conflicting reputations in different regions. Whenever conflicting reputations overlap in the same regions, apply the reputation earned at a higher level. But if the conflicting reputations do not overlap, apply the reputation of the region the adventurer is actually in.

EXAMPLE: Myalgar was a Lawful mage when he adventured in his home barony in Southern Argollë. He reached 5th level, so he is known and beloved by the peasants there and feared by the monsters (+1/-1). Thereafter, Myalgar traveled to distant Kemesh, where he became corrupted by its black magic. At 8th level, the now Chaotic Myalgar is well-known in his county of Kemesh as a sinister sorcerer. When he returns to his home region in Southern Argollë, the residents are unaware of his sinister reputation in Kemesh, and still interact with him on the basis of his reputation there, as a Lawful 5th level mage. Had Myalgar reached 12th level in Kemesh, he would be somewhat known throughout the entire continent, so this would override his earlier reputation. The peasants would tremble in fear at the horror their benefactor had become.

Staying Anonymous

Not every character wishes to have a reputation. Assassins or thieves, for instance, may wish to stay out of the limelight, as might chaotic characters who want to be able to move safely in lawful lands. Other times adventurers may wish to develop a reputation, but fail to do so. Whether or not a character develops a reputation or remains an unknown must be determined by the GM based on the total circumstances of the adventurer’s exploits. The following five questions should be asked:

·     Does the adventurer have a notable appearance, weapon, banner, or symbol?

·     Has the adventurer been seen in the company of other adventurers who do have a reputation?

·     Have NPCs witnessed the adventurer performing noteworthy deeds?

·     Have other PCs told tales of the adventurer’s deeds?

·     Has the adventurer publically deposited, spent, donated, or squandered a significant amount of gold relative to his level?

If no more than two of these questions are answered affirmatively, the adventurer has stayed anonymous. But if at least three of these questions are answered in the affirmative, then the adventurer should gain a reputation.

EXAMPLE: Viktir, a Neutral thief, has just earned his 4th level of experience after raiding the dreaded Death Crypt. He wants to avoid gaining a reputation. He dresses plainly and avoids extravagance and has buried his treasure outside of town. Unfortunately, the NPC mage who hired the party knows they succeeded, so there is a witness. And Viktir has been seen in the company of his party members, who are wandering town letting jewels splash like coppers and bragging about their “unstoppable burglar.” Despite his efforts to lie low, Viktir gains a reputation. 

 

Cool, thanks Alex!

I haven’t read the book you mention, but a while ago I read a historical Jesus book which talked a lot about Roman patronage and honor, banditry, holy men, etc. It prompted me to look into some of the issues in more depth.

I like your system, but I imagine one with a few levers people could interact with… going after higher level foes to get your reputation to a higher level, say… If you take down, or humiliate, a higher level enemy, your name gets tied to theirs, and your reputation could operate at their level… at least until they deal with you. This gives players reasons to go out and challenge worthy opponents, and also gives them people nipping at their heels.

I like that the details of the story that get out are important to keep track of. You get known for something, and those modifiers ought to apply when those details become relevant. A good reason to have or pay a bard… to get the flattering version out there.

This is great. I love it! I think I’m going to adopt it for my game.