Layout preview responses

Development and Playtest ACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Playtest
21

Regarding the ongoing discussion of varieties of Martial Training, when constructing classes, I don’t view adding weapon choices as exclusively choosing Martial Training proficiency, but as a power choice of equivalent effect, providing a narrow weapon selection:

A narrow weapon selection means the class can wield weapons from any 2 of the following 7 narrow categories: (i) axes; (ii) bows/crossbows; (iii) flails/hammers/maces; (iv) swords/daggers; (v) spears/pole arms; (vi) bolas/darts/nets/slings/saps/staffs; (vii) any combination of 3 weapons. (Player’s Companion)

In my games, I even go a step further, and redefine actual Martial Training proficiency as the above choice. I don’t think this is game-breaking.

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That's a good way to do it - worth being the actual rule, at any rate. 

Charles, have you ever seen any conflict between this and what fighting styles a class has available? For example, a class that drops two-handed weapons wouldn't theoretically get a lot of use out of "(v) spears/polearms". In my view it's minor enough (given one has spent a valuable power slot on it) that it shouldn't matter (i.e. let them use polearms), but may need to be noted in an official rule writeup.

 

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I don’t remember doing that with a class, and a player hasn’t asked me to do that. (Even allowing the flexibility above, expanded weapon choices only fit certain characters and are not a popular choice.) I’d want to think through every possibility before making it a rule, but as Judge, I think I’d allow a player to do that.

Polearms can be great, but the initiative penalty hurts secondary and tertiary combatants more, I think.

I’m reminded of the wizard (shaman) at the end of the Conan the Barbarian movie :slight_smile:

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Dark lord dominate beastmen, “usually rely on trust henchmen” should be trusted.

Several places in the magic chapter reference The Tomb of Atuan, but should be The Tombs of Atuan.

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Page 106, “or by spellcasters who have taken the Ceremonial Magic proficiency” - the Ceremonial Magic proficiency description notes a certain set of effects when taken by non-spellcasters, so maybe this should read “characters” instead of “spellcasters”.

Presumably performing a complex ceremony methodically does not entail an entire week without sleeping for more than ten minutes at a time?

Performing complex ceremonies hastily - It’s in the text, but would be nice if there were a row for it on the table on p110.

p112, “later in the day, Balbus and his henchmen Algernon are both badly wounded.” Should be henchman

Kind of odd that the generic/misc special components are covered twice for trinket creation (once on p112 before the roll to create is introduced, once in their own paragraph on 113). Also odd the metamphora are reproduced between gear and trinket creation.

Interruption of trinket use, page 113 - “Should an opponent successfully deal damage… the ceremony fails and the trinket is destroyed.” Is this true of rechargable as well as disposable trinkets, that they are destroyed outright?

It also seems odd thet disposable trinkets are destroyed on stigma reset - I’d expect the item to continue to exist, but just to be disenchanted (granted, the costs are pretty negligible for disposables).

p114, “If a ceremonialist finds and identifies rechargeable trinket” - “a rechargeable trinket”

p114, “Ceremonial Talisman” heading should probably be “Ceremonial Talismans” to match plurality with the Ceremonial Trinkets heading on p112

If a ceremonialist uses a talisman in lieu of traditional implements and rolls a botch, is the talisman damaged in lieu of degradation of implements? Or does the degradation of implements just not happen?

“A ceremonialist creating a black magic talisman gains 1 point of corruption per level of the ceremony or ceremonies affiliated with the talisman.” Seems like this might be an artifact of an older draft, where talismans were associated with particular ceremonies rather than tags like “death and necromancy”?

Liturgical ceremony mishaps, rows 3 and 7, and shamanic mishaps row 7, refer to “the experiment” rather than “the ceremony”.

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The spell signature table referenced in the mishap tables does not appear to be present in this document.

Boil Blood, “scalding puss” should probably be pus.

Call Wild Bear - I’m surprised that summoning a black bear is the same level effect as summoning a cave bear, given that cave bears are much stronger.

“Melee attack throws against agonized creatures automatically hit if the If the attacker” - “if the” duplicated.

Destroy Dead is marked as Black in its description on p134 (and on the table on 121), but this seems like the canonical example of “Death spells which exclusively harm the undead.” Is it black because it can be used to destroy unanimated corpses?

“the fangs of the earth[/]b can only” has some extra bits in there.

“The affected creature must have at least three limbs (hands and feet) free to swim, but needs no climbing gear or handholds.” Well I should hope so…

p158, “Plans are immune” should be Plants.

Cacodemon - wyverine body form mentioned on page 161, but not present in attack routine and damage by body type table (but maybe that’s what the black box in the bottom left of p161 is supposed to be? This could just be my linux pdf viewer).

The meaning of the numbers in parentheses on the cacodemon special abilities table is alluded to within some of the table entries themselves, but never explicitly stated. The 100 / Unusual entry also references “the rust cacodemon” and vampires; looks like a find-replace.

Reading Dragon, it seems like it would’ve been a lot clearer to make wings / flight a special ability, rather than having winged dragons lose a special ability.

“A wyvern’s attack routine consists of either a bite and a tail attack and, if winged, two talon attacks.” should be “A wyvern’s attack routine consists of either a bite and a tail attack or, if winged, two talon attacks.”, per the table on p166. Would also have been nice for usability if Monitor were on that table; I assume it’s the same as in Core, and get that it’s especially complicated for monitors, but it’s an extra book to dig out / lookup to do.

“may stop to listen to the pleas or praise of a soon to be lunch.” would be clearer to parse as “soon-to-be lunch”.

“but if hungry stymph will be lucky to replace one per month.” should be “but a hungry…”.

The footer on the whole monsters chapter says “Eldritch Spell Lists”.

I love the “more common coin” / bulkier treasures, plays very nicely to megadungeon logistics (which I understand is not the focus of this supplement, but is something I would totally steal for non-heroic games) without having to deal with the hassle of selling trade goods.

4d4 rechargeable first-level trinkets is a lot of trinkets to generate and keep track of.

“the bow will call a large roc to server the wielder” should be serve.

p197, “the judge is placing a rare trinket +5”, should be talisman (along with other references to trinket in that boxed text)

p203, short-statured: where do spears fall?

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[quote="jedavis"] Dark lord dominate beastmen, "usually rely on trust henchmen" should be trusted. [/quote]

Fixed!

> Several places in the magic chapter reference The Tomb of Atuan, but should be The Tombs of Atuan.

Fixed, thank you.

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[quote="jedavis"] Page 106, "or by spellcasters who have taken the Ceremonial Magic proficiency" - the Ceremonial Magic proficiency description notes a certain set of effects when taken by non-spellcasters, so maybe this should read "characters" instead of "spellcasters". Presumably performing a complex ceremony methodically does not entail an entire week without sleeping for more than ten minutes at a time? Performing complex ceremonies hastily - It's in the text, but would be nice if there were a row for it on the table on p110.  [/quote]

This is good feedback, but too late to make substantive changes at this time. 

> p112, "later in the day, Balbus and his henchmen Algernon are both badly wounded." Should be henchman

Great catch, fixed!

> Kind of odd that the generic/misc special components are covered twice for trinket creation (once on p112 before the roll to create is introduced, once in their own paragraph on 113).  

> >

Also odd the metamphora are reproduced between gear and trinket creation.

I don't want there to be any question as to whether 'you really need to store the components in metamphora" and "you really need the right components or you take a penalty." People missed these rules in playtest.

> Interruption of trinket use, page 113 - "Should an opponent successfully deal damage... the ceremony fails and the trinket is destroyed." Is this true of rechargable as well as disposable trinkets, that they are destroyed outright?

Yes, it's correct. The magic "blows up". This is a major way that rechargeable trinkets disappear in play. Think of any wizard in fantasy whose skull of power/wand/staff breaks or explodes when the hero messes up his spell.

> It also seems odd thet disposable trinkets are destroyed on stigma reset - I'd expect the item to continue to exist, but just to be disenchanted (granted, the costs are pretty negligible for disposables). 

I hear you, and I think can read it as "exists in a permanent and unenchanted state" if you'd like, but destroyed much simpler. Basically I didn't want there to be any hint that you could "recharge" disposable trinkets after stigma. They're gone. The cleansing of stigma permanently severs your connection to that object and renders  it useless for enchantment in the future.

>  p114, "If a ceremonialist finds and identifies rechargeable trinket" - "a rechargeable trinket"

Thank you!

> p114, "Ceremonial Talisman" heading should probably be "Ceremonial Talismans" to match plurality with the Ceremonial Trinkets heading on p112

Roger that

> If a ceremonialist uses a talisman in lieu of traditional implements and rolls a botch, is the talisman damaged in lieu of degradation of implements? Or does the degradation of implements just not happen? 

Nothing happens except the possible mishap.

> "A ceremonialist creating a black magic talisman gains 1 point of corruption per level of the ceremony or ceremonies affiliated with the talisman." Seems like this might be an artifact of an older draft, where talismans were associated with particular ceremonies rather than tags like "death and necromancy"?

Hazzah, thank you for spotting that.

> Liturgical ceremony mishaps, rows 3 and 7, and shamanic mishaps row 7, refer to "the experiment" rather than "the ceremony".

29

[quote="jedavis"] The spell signature table referenced in the mishap tables does not appear to be present in this document. [/quote]

It's in Player's Companion. No room to say so, though.

> Boil Blood, "scalding puss" should probably be pus.

Yes, yes, it should.

> Call Wild Bear - I'm surprised that summoning a black bear is the same level effect as summoning a cave bear, given that cave bears are much stronger.

It's just how the spell build worked out.

Call of the Wild Bear (3): Summoning, summon a creature (65), creature may have up to 8 HD (x0.7), creature may have up to 1 special ability (x1), restricted to certain monsters – bears (x0.7), range special – creature(s) arrives by means of own locomotion from nearest lair (x0.66), duration 1 day (x1.25), no saving throw (x1), eldritch (x1), total cost 26.3 

> "Melee attack throws against agonized creatures automatically hit if the If the attacker" - "if the" duplicated.

Good catch, thank you!

> Destroy Dead is marked as Black in its description on p134 (and on the table on 121), but this seems like the canonical example of "Death spells which exclusively harm the undead." Is it black because it can be used to destroy unanimated corpses?

Yes. And also it just didn't "feel" like a grey or white spell. It's more of an ash-and-doom than glorious-radiance type feel. 

> "The affected creature must have at least three limbs (hands and feet) free to swim, but needs no climbing gear or handholds." Well I should hope so... 

Ergh, indeed.

> p158, "Plans are immune" should be Plants.

My plans are immune because I have Military Strategy +4. 

> The 100 / Unusual entry also references "the rust cacodemon" and vampires; looks like a find-replace.

The dread rust cacodemon is widely feared.

> Reading Dragon, it seems like it would've been a lot clearer to make wings / flight a special ability, rather than having winged dragons lose a special ability.

This. Is. ACKS!

> "A wyvern’s attack routine consists of either a bite and a tail attack and, if winged, two talon attacks." should be "A wyvern’s attack routine consists of either a bite and a tail attack *or*, if winged, two talon attacks.", per the table on p166.

Actually it's just like wyvern, the base monster. They can choose a bite/tail or two talons but the attack routine includes both.

> Would also have been nice for usability if Monitor were on that table; I assume it's the same as in Core, and get that it's especially complicated for monitors, but it's an extra book to dig out / lookup to do. 

Every table in the sample is missing its right-hand column. Monitor will be there, it just got deleted accidentally by the layout artist. This is true of a bunch of your other comments too...!

> "may stop to listen to the pleas or praise of a soon to be lunch." would be clearer to parse as "soon-to-be lunch".

> >

"but if hungry stymph will be lucky to replace one per month." should be "but a hungry...". 

Thanks!

> The footer on the whole monsters chapter says "Eldritch Spell Lists". 

Yup, we're fixing. 

> I *love* the "more common coin" / bulkier treasures, plays very nicely to megadungeon logistics (which I understand is not the focus of this supplement, but is something I would totally steal for non-heroic games) without having to deal with the hassle of selling trade goods.

I think the treasure system in HFH is a substantial improvement over the core system and am using it for all my games. 

> 4d4 rechargeable first-level trinkets is a lot of trinkets to generate and keep track of.

It is, yeah. 

> "the bow will call a large roc to server the wielder" should be serve. p197,

Oops

> "the judge is placing a rare trinket +5", should be talisman (along with other references to trinket in that boxed text) p203, short-statured: where do spears fall?

Thanks!

30

The Heroic Fantasy Handbook is officially locked for layout and print. Thank you everyone for your exhaustive and detailed feedback.

 

31

This technically isn't a response for *layout preview* - seeing as I missed the Kickstarter and therefore can't view those fancy-shmancy exclusive previews - so this might be pointing out things that got caught long, long ago; but I figure it's better to make an unnecessary warning than to stay silent on something that might've slid by.

Namely I've been looking over the samples in the publicly visible KS updates, and I noticed there seems to be an error in XP chart for Warmistress posted there: the jump from 13th to 14th level requires additional 220k experience points, as opposed to 120k for other levels above 8th.

 

Edit: Ah hell only now I noticed the post saying that layout was officially locked a bit earlier. Ah well, hopefully this got caught in editing.

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This is good feedback, but too late to make substantive changes at this time.

Mm, I suspected that might be the case. So it goes.

The Heroic Fantasy Handbook is officially locked for layout and print. Thank you everyone for your exhaustive and detailed feedback.

So let it be written, so let it be done!

33

This is very exciting! I missed the bus on backing the project, do we have any idea how long it normally takes from when the layout gets finalized to when it is available for those of us who missed out?

34

So, I received the finished pdf today. At a quick look, its very impressive, but I did notice there are a few "see page XX"s in there. 

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Scott, I thought I had gotten them all. Could you let me know which ones you've spotted? We'll have a chance to fix between now and print proof.

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For the Page xx issue, what I found: Page 67(2x), 68, 97(3x), 128, 135, 138, and 152.

37

I concur with moorcrys.

38

my PDF reader found 10 instances of "XX" so this seems correct.

39

shame on me for not digging into the book sooner, but:

pg 27: the text for the Inheritor template says "beastmaster" instead of "chosen"

40

The monster listing for "Snake, Giant Constricting Viper" currently gives anomalously low values for both saving throw and experience (perhaps copied from the giant python), and has what appears to be a placeholder ("Make Incidental") for treasure.