Magic research and domain XP

General ACKS Forums Ask the Autarchs
1

The rules for determining xp from magic research are confusing to me. Is the threshold used the same as the threshold for domain xp? How should you factor the cost if spreading the research out over multiple months? What would happen in the following scenarios:

L6 Mage, threshold 1250 xp

Scenario 1:

Spends 2000 gp on stronghold construction, which would give him 1000 xp, which doesn't exceed his threshold, so he doesn't earn any xp from this.

In the same month, he researches a L2 spell, which gives him 4000 xp, less his threshold of 1250.

In this case, do the thresholds stack? If yes (both use the same threshold) he would get 3750 xp. If not, he would get 2750 xp.

Scenario 2:

He starts researching a L2 spell at the beginning of week 3 of month 1, so he is done at the end of week 2 of month 2. Should he have to overcome one month's threshold or two? (I.e. should he earn 2750 xp or 1500 xp?)

Scenario 3:

The combination of scenarios one and two.

He starts researching a L2 spell at the beginning of week 3 of month 1, so he is done at the end of week 2 of month 2. 

He also spends 2000 gp (1000 xp) on stronghold construction in month 2.

What should happen here?

 

Thanks.

2

Hi Scarth! GP thresholds do not apply to XP earned from stronghold construction or magic research. The GP threshold ONLY applies to XP from domain income and mercantile income.

Scenario 1: He earns 6,000xp. The threshold does not apply to stronghold construction or magic research.

Scenario 2: He earns 4,000xp. The threshold does not apply to magic research.

Scenario 3: He earns 6,000xp. The threshold does not apply to stronghold construction or magic research.

So it works out pretty simply. Let me know if you have any other questions.

3

Quoting the rulebook at Alex makes me feel like a jerk.

That said :stuck_out_tongue:

ACKS Core page 147, Experience from Magical Research:

A character may earn XP from magical research he conducts personally, if its cost exceeds his gp threshold. The XP is earned when the research is completed. Divide the cost of the research by the number of months required to complete it (always divide by at least one). If this monthly cost exceeds the character’s gp threshold, the character earns XP equal to the difference per month of research. Both the base cost of the magical research and any precious materials apply, but the cost for libraries, workshops, or special components is excluded. Failing at magical research does not earn XP

In regards to scenario 2, my opinion is that it is based on time elapsed, not calender months. Researching a level 2 spell takes 4 weeks, or 1 month; he would have to overcome one month’s threshold.

4

I think I prefer forum-Alex's answer anyway.  For dead horses reasons I've flogged before, I'm okay throwing mages a bone when it comes to getting to actually use their class features.  I'd even consider xp for failed research as well as succesful, although that may need some thought.

5

Bleh. Now I now need to go review everything I've ever written on this topic to see whether I mangled my intent in the rules or in the forums.

6

I can understand the concern that magic research might not be lucrative enough to tempt mages into trying it, but I think there's danger without the XP threshold.  Without it, it's substantially more preferable to churn out lots of level 1 scrolls.  The success rate is higher from the start, which means fewer lost resources, and it's easier to sell them in smaller markets, allowing you to funnel the profits back into making more scrolls.  Without the XP threshold, it becomes a bad idea to make anything more than a 1st level spell unless you specifcally want to use the item, but even then, it would likely be more advantageous to make many level 1 scrolls, sell them, and then use the money to buy the higher level scroll if it's possible, because failure to buy doesn't result in lost materials.

7

I agree with this. If I were going to make magical research more lucrative, I would allow you to get benefits of success (such as XP and increased library value) regardless of success or failure.

(This may come from my experience playing a mage-type from 5th to 7th level and not succeeding in a single magical research throw, despite devoting all of my downtime to making potions. I never rolled above a 3.)

8

Out of curiousity: how did your GM handle monster parts acquisitions?

But yeah, as-written magic research is a little punitive, but would be broken without the XP threshold.  That being said, it probably shouldn't be more lucrative than going out and adventuring for at least the first few levels, just something to do in between.  I think letting the library improve even on failed attempts will at least ensure you'll be that much closer to success the next time you attempt.

9

I was playing a half-elf mystic theurge fire cleric (a custom race and class; for the purpose of this discussion, a wonderworker).

I mostly used divine power for my monster parts, which I could obtain by burning things down or blood sacrifice. (PS - I was Chaotic. Dark Sun, so it wasn’t particularly weird.)

10

While we're here, I'd like to piggyback a quick question- If I get discounted building costs (Because I'm a cleric) does that also discount my construction XP? IE: A cleric and a fighter each want to build a stronghold worth 22,500 to secure some land. The cleric pays 11,250 because he's a cleric. Does he then collect only 5625 xp? Can the player invest the full 22,500 even if he's not going to secure that much land in the short term and have an opulent church indeed?

Further, what happens if a player leaves their domain? I can imagine many scenarios where a player clears some wilderness to act as a base, but then later captures a bigger castle, realizes that another location has more strategic value, gets awarded land by the king, just wants to build another castle and has a cooler layout this time, etc, and assigns a hench to be caretaker of his old land and moves into the new stronghold. Should I count it as captured and just reduce the XP immediately? Should I count it as still in his possesion, and then penalize him if the hench ever loses it?

11

Personally, I would treat any extra or "extravagant" spending as reserve XP. I would also credit only the reduced amount spent towards XP. The Cleric already has a significant advantage over the Fighter in terms of XP required for advancement. I also thought a church/temple and a stronghold were explicitly two different things, and gaining the benefits of both requires paying for both (i.e., a church/temple can't act as a stronghold without paying the extra cost).

12

IANAA but this is my interp:

A fortified church is the cleric's stronghold. it does everything the fighter's stronghold does for half cost.

Building a regular church is money spent in pursuit/maintenance of congregants. it has no effect after the initial amount of money is spent.

13

I am seriously not an Autarch, either. More like the anti-Autarch, based on the reliability (or lack thereof) of my answers.

I had taken the two discussions in the rulebook of such structures to mean they were two distinct things. If they're one in the same, I suppose it raises the question of whether or not the Cleric can simply build lots of smaller "fortified churches" for half-price, instead of "religious structures." And what's the cost of a fortified church if the Cleric isn't establishing a domain, but is building within another's domain (maybe that's the qualifier for whether it's half-price or not)?I haven't had a Cleric try and establish a domain, yet.

14

I am also not an Autarch but that is my interpretation as well.

To actually answer some questions (still not an Autarch):

I would give the cleric XP only for the gold actually spent. If they want more XP, they should make a bigger church. That said, they can certainly invest in a stronghold that is too large for their area, although doing so might cause nearby NPC rulers to eye them carefully, as it suggests expansionistic desires.

The fortified church being a stronghold, I would not give it any benefits towards congregants (except those spelled out for strongholds).

I also would not give them the half-price benefit if they’re just building within another’s domain. At that point, they’re not building a stronghold, they’re just building a building.

15

If I get discounted building costs (Because I'm a cleric) does that also discount my construction XP?

Yes.

IE: A cleric and a fighter each want to build a stronghold worth 22,500 to secure some land. The cleric pays 11,250 because he's a cleric. Does he then collect only 5625 xp?

The cleric would collect 5,625xp because he spent 11,250gp on his stronghold.

Can the player invest the full 22,500 even if he's not going to secure that much land in the short term and have an opulent church indeed?

If the cleric spent 22,500gp on his stronghold, he would get 11,250xp. He'd be able to secure a larger territory with such a domain, giving him "room to grow". However, it would also impose a larger stronghold upkeep cost going forward - it is very easy to bankrupt a young domain with an overly large stronghold. It would also increase the unit capacity of his stronghold, which is a mixed blessing. Larger strongholds can be assaulted by the number of units equal to their unit capacity, and thus require more troops to defend.

There are, for a cleric, four basic ways that funds could be spent in a domain: (1) on stronghold construction; (2) on congregants; (3) on domain investment; and (4) urban investment. You can typically leave it up to the player to decide what spending counts as what, provided that it makes sense in-world and is reflected appropriately in the game mechanics. For instance, spending 20K gp on a church would be congregant spending, typically, because it would be fancy woods, altars, pews, stained glass, etc.. If the 20K gp expenditure was to add walls and a "crusader's barracks" to the church, that would be stronghold construction, though. And if the 20K was to add an orchard and a mill and create a monastic farming community, that might be investment.

What happens if a player leaves their domain? I can imagine many scenarios where a player clears some wilderness to act as a base, but then later captures a bigger castle, realizes that another location has more strategic value, gets awarded land by the king, just wants to build another castle and has a cooler layout this time, etc, and assigns a hench to be caretaker of his old land and moves into the new stronghold. 

A player who voluntarily abandons his stronghold and ends up with no stronghold would lose his stronghold XP. He can regain this as usual. It doesn't matter whether he gives it to a vassal or not. No stronghold, no XP!

EXAMPLE: Roghan builds a 25,000GP stronghold. He gains 12,500XP. He later decides to abandon his domain and become a wanderer again, finding the burden of the crown too much. He loses 12,500XP. When Roghan returns, and reclaims the castle, he gets his XP back.

A player who enfiefs his stronghold to a vassal so that can rule a stronghold of equal or larger value does not lose his stronghold XP. If he were to lose his new stronghold, he would lose only the vlaue of stronghold XP he'd gotten initially. If his vassal were to lose the old stronghold, there would be no effect on the player character.

EXAMPLE: Roghan captures a 100,000GP stronghold. He assigns his old stronghold to his vassal, Zelligar. Later, in battle, Zelligar's 25,000GP stronghold is captured. This has no effect. But when Roghan's new 100,000GP stronghold is destroyed, Roghan loses XP - 12,500XP (the value he got from building his first stronghold).

Although it is not in the rules-as-written, I personally award stronghold XP equal to 1/2 (GP value of new stronghold - current stronghold), if the player makes the new stronghold the seat of his personal domain. He is at risk of losing all of his cumulative XP if he loses his new stronghold, though.

EXAMPLE: Roghan captures a 100,000GP. He assigns his old stronghold to his vassal Zelligar. Roghan gains (100,000-25,000)/2 37,500XP. If he loses his new stronghold, he loses 50,000XP.

This latter mechanic explains why Sauroman was so weak once he lost his tower. :-D

I also award stronghold XP for capturing an initial stronghold, rather than building one. There were some differences of opinion within the Autarch studio on this rule during the design period, so it didn't make it into the final rules. (Tavis and Greg were more focused on earning the XP for spending the gold, whereas I was more focused on earning the XP for getting a stronghold).