You'd have to re-flavor the text (unless perhaps the poison left one's arm inoperable or made some teeth fall out for some reason?) but do people use this table for death-by-poison? Different answer for save-or-die poison versus save or take damage that lowers your hit points to zero or below?
I do, re-flavoring the table as necessary. I apply the -10 for instant death if it's save v. death.
I just had something related come up with a character struck by a wyvern-poisoned arrow (6d6 damage, yikes!). We rolled to determine the wound after the character was revived, and he ended up with a paralyzed hand, but the poison was neutralized within one turn from a skilled healer. I decided that if that effect can revive someone slain by poison within the last 10 rounds, it could probably reverse a lasting wound caused by poison within the last turn (depending on the injury).
I don't think I've ever applied a -10 modifier for instant death to Mortal Wounds rolls. I see it on the Tampering With Mortality table, but I also kinda like the idea of characters slain in one hit being in real trouble. Should I increase low-level lethality? Part of me wants to. >:)
I don't think of most poisons as causing instant death in my game. Instant incapacitation, sure.
Maybe l'll treat poison as setting the PC at minus 1/2 their max hp and therefore applying the "-5 if hp are at negative value of 1/2 max hp or more" penalty? Still quite nasty and I'll know what what their hit points are at for the 1-15 results. They will still die if there is insufficient healing magic to bring them to 1 hp in a timely manner. Hmmm... but this might have the odd effect of making poison actually worse for higher level and/or higher hitpoint characters/classes. Mere comfrey might save a 1st level mage in this case, but have no power to prevent the death of a 9th level fighter...
For a flat -10 penalty taken from the Tampering With Mortality table mods how does one decide what their negative hit point value is in the face of 1-15 Mortal Wounds results?
In any case maybe Delay Poison (Divine 2), in addition to its described effects, acts as Treatment for a +2 modifier in this scenario? That spell is otherwise helpful in only rare instances.
Thanks for the responses so far!
I personally am not a fan of save or die poisons on low-level monsters, so the houserule I use is that for all monsters of 8 HD or less, a ‘save or die’ poison is actually ‘save or be set to 0 HP’.
This requires a roll on the Mortal Wounds table, but does give the +5 bonus for being at exactly 0 HP.
I came into the game after "Save or Die" was less en vogue, and it's easily one of the hardest things for me to accept about old school play. I vastly prefer what is sometimes called "last gasp" saving throws, where it will take several failed saves of increasingly unpleasant side effects before true death comes. I especially prefer this when the interval at which the saves happens give the players an opportunity to make a meaningful decision, whether that's spending your combat round administering treatment vs. eliminating the threat or (for longer periods of time) pressing on in the dungeon vs. seeking care immediately.
I'm a killer DM and I didn't even know it!
I've been treating save-or-die effects as dead, no mortal wounds roll. I figure Restore Life is cheap in this game compared to some, and what's a tampering with mortality roll between friends?
I'll have to give this some thought going forward.
Same! I didn't realize that "die" meant "enter the quantum state from which death may or may not emerge"
[quote="susan_brindle"]
Same! I didn't realize that "die" meant "enter the quantum state from which death may or may not emerge"
[/quote]
people sometimes use the more general term "save or suck" to describe something other people just call "save or die" which are effects that will essentially take you out of at least the combat and potentially the adventure unless everyone heads back to town right away: paralysis, petrification, actual death, etc.
Eh, I guess I'm a big softie.
I'll say! Max hit points at first level, Wisdom being allowed to modify all saving throws, fighter damage bonuses, cleaving, the existence of the Mortal Wounds Table in the first place (rather than instant death at 0 hp): it's almost as if you wanted characters to survive to see 2nd level. For shame!
I feel so ashamed. *hangs head*
I may be in the wrong crowd. I occassionally try to think of ways to make effects that will completely remove a player from combat, much less ones that kill them without damage, take multiple saving throws. I'm even a wimp about energy drain, I give my players an extra saving throw, and if they make it they only lose XP equal to the value of the monster on each hit.
Here's an example of how I might do a save or suck petrification:
# | Failed Saves | Successes
1 | 1/2 movement speed | avoid entirely if first save, otherwise roll save every round
2 | as above + -2 to hit | save every turn
3 | 1/4 move, -4 to hit | save every hour
4 | petrified | cured.
this is kind of a quick thought, because obviously failing a few saves and then succeeding means you spend a long time with major status effects, but the alternative was that one immediate fail completely incapacitates you. Definitely needs more work.
Wait, is this actually how it's supposed to work in the rules? "Die" just means "go to the mortal wounds table"? This whole time I've been scaring my players to death by saying that poison would just straight up instantly kill them.
Does this mean that stuff like wight-hugs and the death spell just sends you to the mortal wounds table too?
The rules-as-written are that death effects are, in fact, instant death. The -10 penalty for "character is instantly killed" appears on the Tampering With Mortality table.
What I was saying is that I will allow a d20 roll for PCs and apply that penalty to the mortal wounds table. But that's not rules as written, that's just me being nice. I have a new group that is coming from weaksauce games.
Despite my reputation as a killer DM, I just can't bring myself to kill PCs on a failed poison save (bottomless pits though are another matter entirely...)
Lately I've been ruling that on a failed poison save you take the same damage again at the beginning of your next round and have to save again, until you either pass, or go below 0 hp (at which point roll on the mortal wounds table as normal)
Despite my reputation as a killer DM, I just can't bring myself to kill PCs on a failed poison save (bottomless pits though are another matter entirely...)
Lately I've been ruling that on a failed poison save you take the same damage again at the beginning of your next round and have to save again, until you either pass, or go below 0 hp (at which point roll on the mortal wounds table as normal)