Training times for Manual of Arms

[Cameron]

One of my players wants to establish a training school for skirmishers (unarmored and carrying shield and a few javelins to minimize encumbrance, with the Running proficiency) who can throw a decent distance and then move (quickly!) behind the heavier-armored troops.

It appeals to me, and I’d like to be fair to the player, but I can’t figure out how the training times were arrived at.

I think one slot of Manual of Arms is sufficient, with a requirement of the Running proficiency, and it seems like they should be somewhere near slingers (for the ranged output) but other than that …

Was there any kind of formula to the training times? Is it based on a historical source I can go to? Is it just by feel?

[Thomas_Weigel]

From a balance perspective, skirmishers would be not-quite-as-good as slingers or heavy infantry.

I don’t know how close I am to the official method, but the following reverse engineered guidelines are what I’ve worked out for determining custom troop training times:

Use the longest minimum time. They are not usually additive, unless the Judge thinks they should be.

Armor: Any armor short of plate armor has a minimum of 1 month. Plate armor increases the minimum to 2 months.

Melee: Any plausible tight group of melee weapons has a minimum of 1 month. Covering lots of different groups of weapons should be one month per group.

Missile: Short range missiles (dart, hand axe, javelin, spear) is a minimum of 1 month. An easy missile (crossbow) is also a minimum of 1 month. The majority of missile weapons are 2 months. An elite missile weapon (longbow) is 3 months. A super-duper elite missile weapon (composite bow) is 6 months. Mounted missile attacks increases the minimum to 4 months or double the above, whichever is higher.

Mount: A light war horse or mule has a minimum of 3 months; medium war horse, 4 months; heavy war horse or wolf, 6 months. Armor is limited by the horse’s load.

Like I said, it may not match the official method. It does match the official results, however, and has reasonably balanced effects.

[Cameron]

Thank you. That looks like it gets fair results, and it will let me adjudicate more cases than just the one I know of right now.

[archon]

Thomas is very, very close. The "official" method is:

1 month training time for melee troops or crossbowmen. 

2 month training time for slingers, short bowmen, or composite bowmen.

3 month training time for longbowmen.

Multiply time by 3 to fight on light warhorses.

Multiply time by 6 to fight on medium or heavy warhorses.

Thus a composite bowmen (2 months) on a light warhorse (x3) takes 6 months. 

Composite bows are not harder to use than self bows, but they are much more expensive to field. Longbows are much less expensive than composite bows, but are harder to use, as they require substantially greater strength. 

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On a related note, this data from Domains at War may be helpful:

 

Once levied, conscripts can be trained to become professional troops in the same varieties as exist for mercenaries (e.g. light infantry, horse archers, etc.). However, not every conscript can qualify to become every type of troop. Some lack any talent with animals, and cannot become cavalry; others are nearsighted and cannot become archers, for instance.

Qualifying Number of Conscripts
	Qualifying Number (Per 100 Conscripts)
Troop Type	Man	Dwarf	Elf	Goblin	Orc
Light Infantry	100	-	100	100	100
Slingers	50	-	-	50	-
Heavy Infantry	50	100	50	-	75
Crossbowman	50	50	-	-	50
Mounted Crossbowman	-	12	-	-	-
Bowman	50	-	100	50	50
Longbowman	25	-	50	-	-
Light Cavalry	25	-	50	-	-
Horse Archers	12	-	25	-	-
Medium Cavalry	17	-	-	-	-
Heavy Cavalry	9	-	-	-	-
Cataphract Cavalry	5
Wolf Riders	-	-	-	5	-

Any peasant able-bodied enough to be conscripted in the first place can be trained to be light infantry. 50% of conscripts have the strength and stamina to be heavy infantry. 50% have the agility and vision to be slingers, bowmen or crossbowmen. Up to 25% have the skill and seat to be light cavalry and only two-thirds of those (17% of the total) to be medium cavalry. Longbowmen must be drawn from those with the strength of heavy infantry and vision of bowmen, so only 25% of conscripts can qualify. Horse archers must be drawn from those capable of being both bowmen and cavalry, so only 12% can qualify. Heavy cavalry must be drawn from those capable of being both heavy infantry and medium cavalry, so only 8.5% can qualify. Cataphract cavalry must be drawn from those capable of being heavy infantry, bowmen, and medium cavalry, so only 5% can qualify. 

 

[koewn]

Alex, I was looking at expanding my training system for the “profession” proficiencies into the martial arts, as it were, and I’m starting by deconstructing the Manual of Arms proficiency, and what proficiency-analogues that gives to these conscripts during training. (for example, I’d presume a Cavalry unit to have “Riding”)

I can assume that these conscripts still fight as Normal Men (attack throw 11+) - would you be able to give me any hint as to what sort of timeframe it takes a troop unit to become Veteran/Elite unit and attack at 10+ (if that happens, I don’t know if you’re presuming an influx of newbies into a unit as casualties happen, thereby keeping the average attack forever at 11+)

Thanks!

[archon]

 

Mercenary Veterans

Most mercenary units try to avoid actual warfare, preferring to be deployed to patrols, garrisons, and punitive expeditions against peasants. After all, real fighting leads to real dying, and dead mercenaries collect no wages! As a result, the average human mercenary is a 0^th level normal man (1-1 HD, attack throw 11+, damage by weapon).

Mercenary units with experience of real war are known as veterans. Veterans will generally be 1^st level fighters or explorers. They will have morale scores 1 point higher than the base morale for their troop type. If recruited into a leader’s army, veterans must be paid twice the wages of normal troops of their type. Up to 25% of human mercenaries hired (e.g. 100 out of every 400) may be veterans. (Being 1 HD creatures, elven and dwarven mercenaries are already equivalent to veterans.)

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According to the Domains at War rules-as-written (which are, to be fair, still in beta!), there's no way to "train up" to elite status. You have to get there via XP. Here are the applicable rules:

 

0^th Level Characters and Experience from Adventuring

A 0^th level character who participates in an adventure will earn experience points. When a 0^th level character earns 100 XP from adventuring, he advances to become a 1^st level fighter. The character gains the fighter class proficiency, powers, attack throws, and saving throws. The character re-rolls his hit points using his new class’s Hit Die (1d8), keeping either his new hp total or his prior hp total if it was higher. The new 1^st level character retains any general proficiencies he already knew.  When he advances to 2^nd, 3^rd, and 4^th level, he must remove one of these pre-existing general proficiencies, representing the erosion of his old professional skills over time. When he reaches 4^th level, he acquires the Adventuring proficiency. Under normal circumstances, 0^th level characters do not advance into classes other than fighters from adventuring XP. 

 

Experience Points from Spoils:

Each participant (whether a commander, a hero, or a creature in a unit) earns 1 XP for each gold piece he collects from the spoils of war. Troops will expect that at least 50% of any spoils captured will be shared on a pro rata basis in relation to their wages. If this does not occur, the Judge should make a morale roll for any unpaid troops.

EXAMPLE: An army consisting of 8 units of 100 heavy infantry and 8 units of 25 heavy cavalry, led by 9^th level fighter, has gathered battle loot worth 10,000gp. The leader claims half (5,000gp) for himself and shares the rest of the loot among the men on a pro rata basis in relation to their wages, so that heavy infantry get 3gp each and heavy cavalry get 13gp each. The General earns 5,000XP, each heavy infantryman receives 3 XP and each heavy cavalryman receives 13XP.

[Jard]

the XP from spoils mechanic is very interesting, I think I’ll be implementing it right away (my party has around 15 mercenaries) to see how this shakes out. It has interesting implications in that the better-paid longbowman (who, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere is almost completely inferior to the crossbowmen) suddenly levels up much faster. This is probably a good thing because longbowmen need to be high enough level to cleave frequently before they are ever better than crossbowmen (barring house rules).